> There is a huge logical problem with being vegetarian
> for the pseudo-ethical reason you have given, and I'm
> asking questions to get you to acknowledge the problem,
> and then to see and acknowledge seeing that your
> dietary response does not address the problem.
>
> You've now compounded your ethical problems by lying,
> being snippy, being evasive, and lying some more.
>
> Why are you even responding, SeeJames, if your
> responses are only going to serve to illustrate that
> you are lying and being evasive?

I'll be glad to offer the information you are so desperately trying to
pry from James.

Let's start with the facts:

The population in the US alone is in excess of 270,000,000. Worldwide,
38,000 children die of starvation each day. If we were to do away with
the meat industry, the US alone would free up enough grains and soy to
feed 1,300,000,000 people. That's more than the entire population of
the US - in fact for the same output of resources, we could feed the
population of this country alone nearly four times over.

But here is your pedestal of sorts:

>>>>>What SPECIFICALLY is wrong with that assessment given the
>>>>>fact that vegans do little or nothing -- MOSTLY NOTHING --
>>>>>about collateral deaths and casualties from agriculture?
>>>>
>>>>First of all, most vegans outside of this newsgroup probably have
never
>>>>considered the idea of collateral deaths resulting from
agriculture.
>>>
>>>Most vegans IN this ng haven't considered it, either.
>>
>> How could they possibly miss it with all the ranting that goes on
here?!

>It isn't whether they've missed it, it's what they've not done with
such
>information. They continue making categorical statements of moral
>superiority despite the evidence against them.

And granted I can't dispute that. No matter how we live we're going to
inadvetantly have an effect of some sort on our surroundings.
Agriculture is no exception even when meat production is not included.
What blows my mind is that you seem to think that the amount of damage
done by a human who consumes only plant matter equals even half that
which is done by the meat industry alone.

Consider this:

- Percentage of corn grown in United States eaten by human beings: 20
- Percentage of corn grown in United States eaten by livestock: 80
- Percentage of soy grown in United States eaten by livestock: 90
- Percentage of oats grown in United States eaten by livestock: 95
- Percentage of protein wasted by cycling grain through livestock: 90
- Percentage of carbohydrate wasted by cycling grain through
livestock: 99
- Percentage of dietary fiber wasted by cycling grain through
livestock: 100
- Pounds of potatoes that can be grown on 1 acre of land: 20,000
- Pounds of beef that can be produced on 1 acre of land: 165
- Percentage of U.S. agricultural land used to produce beef: 56
- Pounds of grain and soybeans needed to produce 1 pound of feedlot
beef: 16
- Pounds of protein fed to chickens to produce 1 pound of protein as
chicken flesh: 5 pounds
- Pounds of protein fed to hogs to produce 1 pound of protein as hog
flesh: 7.5 pounds
- Amount of total U.S. grain production consumed by livestock: 70%
- Amount of U.S. grain exports consumed by livestock: 66%
- Amount of world grain harvest consumed by livestock throughout the
1980s: half
- Number of pure vegetarians (vegans) who can be fed on the amount of
land
needed to feed 1 person consuming meat-based diet: 20
- Number of people who will starve to death this year: 20,000,000
- Number of people who could be adequately fed if Americans reduced
their intake of meat by 10%: 100,000,000
- Amount of increase in global cattle population during the last 40
years: 100%
- Amount of increase in global fowl population during the last 40
years: 200%
- Ratio of livestock to people on Earth: three to one
- Amount of Earth's land mass grazed by livestock: half
- Amount of U.S. cropland producing livestock feed: 64%
- Amount of U.S. cropland producing fruits and vegetables: 2%
- Percentage of original U.S. topsoil lost to date: 75
- Amount of U.S. cropland lost each year to soil erosion: 4,000,000
acres, the size of Connecticut
- Percentage of U.S. topsoil loss directly associated with livestock
raising: 85
- Amount of original U.S. cropland permanently removed from production
due to excessive soil erosion: one-third
- Pounds of topsoil lost in the production of one pound of feedlot
steak: 35
- Current annual topsoil loss on agricultural land in the U.S.: over 5
billion tons
- Current annual topsoil loss on agricultural worldwide: 26 billion
tons
- Time required for nature to form one inch of topsoil: 200 to 1000
years
- Number of acres of U.S. forest which have been cleared to create
cropland to produce a meat- centered diet: 260,000,000
- How often an acre of U.S. trees disappears: Every 8 seconds
- Amount of trees spared per year by each individual who switches to a
pure vegetarian diet: 1 acre
- Estimated area of rainforest destroyed annually: 125,000 square
miles
- The driving force behind the destruction of the tropical
rainforests: American meat habit
- Amount of meat imported annually by U.S. from Costa Rica, El
Salvador, Guatemala, Nicaragua, Honduras and Panama: 200,000,000
pounds
- Amount of meat eaten by average person in Costa Rica, El Salvador,
- Guatemala, Nicaragua, Honduras and Panama:
- Less than the average American housecat
- Current rate of species extinction, largely due to the destruction
of tropical rainforests and related habitats: one every 60 minutes

And while that should certainly be enough, what about the waste that
comes from animals in these factory farms? Here's a few more stats for
educational purposes:

- Sewage systems in U.S. cities: Common
- Sewage systems in U.S. feedlots: Nil
- Amount of waste produced annually by U.S. livestock in confinement
operations which is not recycled: 1 billion tons
- Relative concentration of feedlot wastes compared to raw domestic
sewage: Ten to several hundred times more highly concentrated
- Where feedlot waste often ends up: In our water
- Amount of wells and surface streams in the U.S. contaminated by
agricultural pollutants: half

So laid out in these simplistic terms (and don't worry I won't leave
you hanging to draw these conclusions for yourself) if this entire
country were to switch to a plant-based diet it would not only
significantly cut down the damage to both the land, the waterways, and
the environment as a whole, but farming of plant matter could easily
be cut to nearly half what it is now if it were limited to plants
considered edible by humans.

I'll reiterate a point that Strutz made: There's a certain point where
it comes down to numbers. None of us can, at this point in time
certainly, live a cruelty-free existance. In fact, I'm highly
skeptical of the idea that such a thing would ever be possible. Still
skepticism is my nature and as much as possible I attempt to hope we
will come as close as is possible.

In the meantime, we can choose to take the path less travelled in an
effort to accomplish this goal in the long term. This is the only life
we have so far as we know (unless you think there are golden gates in
the sky - no matter, we're all entitled to our opinions, true?).
Better yet, let me rephrase that: Based on a combination of statistics
and common sense, I and others have made the choice to try to maintain
a sustainable world for the future of all creatures on this planet.
You're under no obligation to follow in my (our) footsteps. If you can
read the facts and still insist that they're not true, I'm not here to
convince you otherwise.

However, if you're interested, Carl Sagan's "Billions and Billions" is
an excellent read and touches on many of the above mentioned issues in
a clear concise manner. But if you dislike Sagan for his liberal
stance hunt down a copy of "World Scientists' Warning To Humanity"
signed in 1993 by over 1,670 scientists, including 104 Nobel laureates
(a majority of the living recipients of the prize in the sciences).
This piece almost made it to mainstream media upon its release in late
1992, but was overshadowed by the big story on one of the Spice Girls
quitting the band (gotta keep our priorities straight, right?). And
last but not least John Robbins' "Food Revolution" is filled with
annotated facts and quotes from both opponents and proponents of the
meat industry including the extensive lists above.

Good luck to you... Oh, and as for the homicidal tendencies? I'd see a
shrink on that one. A good dose of Seroquel should fix you right up.

-Goon