Goonius wrote:

> > There is a huge logical problem with being vegetarian
> > for the pseudo-ethical reason you have given, and I'm
> > asking questions to get you to acknowledge the problem,
> > and then to see and acknowledge seeing that your
> > dietary response does not address the problem.
> >
> > You've now compounded your ethical problems by lying,
> > being snippy, being evasive, and lying some more.
> >
> > Why are you even responding, SeeJames, if your
> > responses are only going to serve to illustrate that
> > you are lying and being evasive?
>
> I'll be glad to offer the information you are so desperately trying to
> pry from James.
>
> Let's start with the facts:
>
> The population in the US alone is in excess of 270,000,000. Worldwide,
> 38,000 children die of starvation each day. If we were to do away with
> the meat industry, the US alone would free up enough grains and soy to
> feed 1,300,000,000 people. That's more than the entire population of
> the US - in fact for the same output of resources, we could feed the
> population of this country alone nearly four times over.
>
> But here is your pedestal of sorts:
>
> >>>>>What SPECIFICALLY is wrong with that assessment given the
> >>>>>fact that vegans do little or nothing -- MOSTLY NOTHING --
> >>>>>about collateral deaths and casualties from agriculture?
> >>>>
> >>>>First of all, most vegans outside of this newsgroup probably have
> never
> >>>>considered the idea of collateral deaths resulting from
> agriculture.
> >>>
> >>>Most vegans IN this ng haven't considered it, either.
> >>
> >> How could they possibly miss it with all the ranting that goes on
> here?!
>
> >It isn't whether they've missed it, it's what they've not done with
> such
> >information. They continue making categorical statements of moral
> >superiority despite the evidence against them.
>
> And granted I can't dispute that. No matter how we live we're going to
> inadvetantly have an effect of some sort on our surroundings.
> Agriculture is no exception even when meat production is not included.
> What blows my mind is that you seem to think that the amount of damage
> done by a human who consumes only plant matter equals even half that
> which is done by the meat industry alone.
>
> Consider this:
>
> - Percentage of corn grown in United States eaten by human beings: 20
> - Percentage of corn grown in United States eaten by livestock: 80
> - Percentage of soy grown in United States eaten by livestock: 90
> - Percentage of oats grown in United States eaten by livestock: 95
> - Percentage of protein wasted by cycling grain through livestock: 90
> - Percentage of carbohydrate wasted by cycling grain through
> livestock: 99
> - Percentage of dietary fiber wasted by cycling grain through
> livestock: 100
> - Pounds of potatoes that can be grown on 1 acre of land: 20,000
> - Pounds of beef that can be produced on 1 acre of land: 165
> - Percentage of U.S. agricultural land used to produce beef: 56
> - Pounds of grain and soybeans needed to produce 1 pound of feedlot
> beef: 16
> - Pounds of protein fed to chickens to produce 1 pound of protein as
> chicken flesh: 5 pounds
> - Pounds of protein fed to hogs to produce 1 pound of protein as hog
> flesh: 7.5 pounds
> - Amount of total U.S. grain production consumed by livestock: 70%
> - Amount of U.S. grain exports consumed by livestock: 66%
> - Amount of world grain harvest consumed by livestock throughout the
> 1980s: half
> - Number of pure vegetarians (vegans) who can be fed on the amount of
> land
> needed to feed 1 person consuming meat-based diet: 20
> - Number of people who will starve to death this year: 20,000,000
> - Number of people who could be adequately fed if Americans reduced
> their intake of meat by 10%: 100,000,000
> - Amount of increase in global cattle population during the last 40
> years: 100%
> - Amount of increase in global fowl population during the last 40
> years: 200%
> - Ratio of livestock to people on Earth: three to one
> - Amount of Earth's land mass grazed by livestock: half
> - Amount of U.S. cropland producing livestock feed: 64%
> - Amount of U.S. cropland producing fruits and vegetables: 2%
> - Percentage of original U.S. topsoil lost to date: 75
> - Amount of U.S. cropland lost each year to soil erosion: 4,000,000
> acres, the size of Connecticut
> - Percentage of U.S. topsoil loss directly associated with livestock
> raising: 85
> - Amount of original U.S. cropland permanently removed from production
> due to excessive soil erosion: one-third
> - Pounds of topsoil lost in the production of one pound of feedlot
> steak: 35
> - Current annual topsoil loss on agricultural land in the U.S.: over 5
> billion tons
> - Current annual topsoil loss on agricultural worldwide: 26 billion
> tons
> - Time required for nature to form one inch of topsoil: 200 to 1000
> years
> - Number of acres of U.S. forest which have been cleared to create
> cropland to produce a meat- centered diet: 260,000,000
> - How often an acre of U.S. trees disappears: Every 8 seconds
> - Amount of trees spared per year by each individual who switches to a
> pure vegetarian diet: 1 acre
> - Estimated area of rainforest destroyed annually: 125,000 square
> miles
> - The driving force behind the destruction of the tropical
> rainforests: American meat habit
> - Amount of meat imported annually by U.S. from Costa Rica, El
> Salvador, Guatemala, Nicaragua, Honduras and Panama: 200,000,000
> pounds
> - Amount of meat eaten by average person in Costa Rica, El Salvador,
> - Guatemala, Nicaragua, Honduras and Panama:
> - Less than the average American housecat
> - Current rate of species extinction, largely due to the destruction
> of tropical rainforests and related habitats: one every 60 minutes
>
> And while that should certainly be enough, what about the waste that
> comes from animals in these factory farms? Here's a few more stats for
> educational purposes:
>
> - Sewage systems in U.S. cities: Common
> - Sewage systems in U.S. feedlots: Nil
> - Amount of waste produced annually by U.S. livestock in confinement
> operations which is not recycled: 1 billion tons
> - Relative concentration of feedlot wastes compared to raw domestic
> sewage: Ten to several hundred times more highly concentrated
> - Where feedlot waste often ends up: In our water
> - Amount of wells and surface streams in the U.S. contaminated by
> agricultural pollutants: half
>
> So laid out in these simplistic terms (and don't worry I won't leave
> you hanging to draw these conclusions for yourself) if this entire
> country were to switch to a plant-based diet it would not only
> significantly cut down the damage to both the land, the waterways, and
> the environment as a whole, but farming of plant matter could easily
> be cut to nearly half what it is now if it were limited to plants
> considered edible by humans.
>
> I'll reiterate a point that Strutz made: There's a certain point where
> it comes down to numbers. None of us can, at this point in time
> certainly, live a cruelty-free existance. In fact, I'm highly
> skeptical of the idea that such a thing would ever be possible. Still
> skepticism is my nature and as much as possible I attempt to hope we
> will come as close as is possible.
>
> In the meantime, we can choose to take the path less travelled in an
> effort to accomplish this goal in the long term. This is the only life
> we have so far as we know (unless you think there are golden gates in
> the sky - no matter, we're all entitled to our opinions, true?).
> Better yet, let me rephrase that: Based on a combination of statistics
> and common sense, I and others have made the choice to try to maintain
> a sustainable world for the future of all creatures on this planet.
> You're under no obligation to follow in my (our) footsteps. If you can
> read the facts and still insist that they're not true, I'm not here to
> convince you otherwise.
>
> However, if you're interested, Carl Sagan's "Billions and Billions" is
> an excellent read and touches on many of the above mentioned issues in
> a clear concise manner. But if you dislike Sagan for his liberal
> stance hunt down a copy of "World Scientists' Warning To Humanity"
> signed in 1993 by over 1,670 scientists, including 104 Nobel laureates
> (a majority of the living recipients of the prize in the sciences).
> This piece almost made it to mainstream media upon its release in late
> 1992, but was overshadowed by the big story on one of the Spice Girls
> quitting the band (gotta keep our priorities straight, right?). And
> last but not least John Robbins' "Food Revolution" is filled with
> annotated facts and quotes from both opponents and proponents of the
> meat industry including the extensive lists above.
>
> Good luck to you... Oh, and as for the homicidal tendencies? I'd see a
> shrink on that one. A good dose of Seroquel should fix you right up.
>
> -Goon

Jonathan Ball(less) will not be able to read this and get a single bit of
information from it. This kind of stuff is what his cowardly person runs
and hides from. Instead he likes to pretend that he alone (christ complex)
is the ultimate authority on this subject simply because he needs an arena
to carry attacks. It is his warring nature that he inherited from the
ghosts of confederate dead that fought and lost a war over their rights to
continue in human trafficking. The dark evil past of America does not die
easily!