On 9 Jun, 17:14, Laurie > wrote:
> Dragonblaze wrote:
> >> Let me repeat; if you are claiming that humans are
> >> natural 'omnivores', then do you kill, dismember, and
> >> eat raw your animal prey as all natural 'omnivores' do,
> >> *with your natural physiology? *No guns, no knives, no
> >> fire. *If not, why not?
>
> > We certainly used to - . We now pay other people to
> > specialize in things we no longer have time for.
>
> * * * * Trying to evade the issue, right? *Afraid to face the ugly
> reality?

I'm not evading anything, just explaining why things are nowadays like
they are. I live in a major city, and certainly do not have the
premises or grounds to raise my own animals or hunt for my food.

What ugly reality you might be talking about? If you mean the origin
of the meat I purchase, I'm VERY aware where it comes from. I tend to
buy my meat from the nearby city farm - so I've seen the animals
before they end on my plate. Nothing ugly about that, as all life
above the level of most plants must subsist on other life. After all,
the vegetables you much on were alive once.

> > ... but as with all processes, world has moved on
>
> * * * * Are you so ill-educated to assume that the Laws of
> Biochemistry have somehow changed over time?
> * * * * PLEASE provide some scientifically-credible support for this
> statement, or be polite enough to withdraw it.
> * * * * You are not authorized to just make science up to suit your
> agenda.

State the "Laws of Biochemistry" - whatever they might be.

What did you find so difficult about my statement? It was: "We
certainly used to . We now pay other people to specialize in things we
no longer have time for."

If you are doubting we have been omnivores throughout human existence,
I will refer you to prehistoric archaeological sites with all the
charred and cracked animal bones, or the prehistoric cave paintings
and/or rock carvings with depictions of hunting scenes or game
animals. Start with the Lascaux cave - and I can easily post
references to even older sites than that.

"You are not authorized to just make science up to suit your agenda."

Take your own advice - and try explaining how "natural detoxing"
managed to kill 22 million people in the Spanish Flu epidemic of
1919-1920.

> > Let me pose a counterquestion: do you grow ALL your food,
> > *cultivate the cotton and linen for your clothes, spin
> > the thread, weave the cloth, cut and sew the clothes,...
>
> * * * * Totally irrelevant and indicative of your intellectual
> evasiveness or your failure to comprehend the issues. *The
> laws of human digestion have NOT CHANGED, as you are implying.

Not evading anything, just trying to show you how skewed your
perspective is. Now, answer the question. Do you forage or grow all
your own food?

> > I would think your reply would be the same as mine.
>
> * * * * I have no need to evade the issue, which is that human
> biochemistry has NOT changed, as you fallaciously imply.

YOU'RE the one who's claiming that, since you imply that somehow we
are now unable to consume animal products.

Show me ONE culture/nation/tribe/whatever that can be shown to have
been pre-industrial vegans. I will not hold my breath while waiting,
for obvious reasons.

> >> I am focusing on the fact that humans are not NATURAL
> >> 'omnivores', but are CULTURAL 'omnivores', conditioned
> >> *to do so by extant cultural programming -before- one
> >> can think for one's self. *So, your 'free will' does
> >> not exist in such practices because you did not make
> >> the informed 'choice' to do so.
>
> * * * * Missed this? *Not worthy of a thoughtful, intelligent
> response? *Are you capable of any meaningful conversation?
>
> > See my previous reply.
>
> * * * * Hollow, and meaningless.

Look who's talking. You have the slight dilemma of trying to explain
how and why your alleged vegans switched to a diet including animal
ingredients. There is nothing in the archaeological data to support
your allegation, so some evidence would be appreciated.

Remember, you're the one making that claim, so the burden of proof is
squarely on you.

> > As regards the human history, cracked and burnt animal
> > bones are found everywhere in archaeological digs, from
> > the earliest human sites on.
>
> * * * * You are apparently unaware that early humans, pre-tool and
> fire ate a totally RAW diet of fruits and leaves, as modern
> chimps do. *Thus, they left NO long-term remains, such as
> those always left by recent flesh-eating tribes.
> * * * * Thus, raw-eating humans existed, and were eating millions
> of years before fire and tools were developed. *Try to get
> your baby archeology correct before you embarrass yourself like
> this repeatedly. *Thanks for the laugh.

Any evidence for this assertion? No? I thought so. All I have seen
from you are mere assertions, which no evidence whatsoever to back any
of your claims up.

As for my evidence, how about reading up on Olduvai? (In case you do
not know what Olduvai is, look it up he http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olduvai_Gorge
). Start with this article:

Systematic Butchery by Plio/Pleistocene Hominids at Olduvai Gorge,
Tanzania [and Comments and Reply] by Henry T. Bunn, Ellen M. Kroll,
Stanley H. Ambrose, Anna K. Behrensmeyer, Lewis R. Binford, Robert J.
Blumenschine, Richard G. Klein, Henry M. McHenry, Christopher J.
O'Brien and J. J. Wymer. Current Anthropology, Vol. 27, No. 5 (Dec.,
1986), pp. 431-452

Then you might try:

Cut marks on small mammals at Olduvai Gorge Bed-I by Y. Fernández-
Jalvo, P. Andrews and C. Denys. Journal of Human Evolution,
Volume 36, Issue 5, May 1999, Pages 587-589

This might also prove enlightening:

Meat-eating by early hominids at the FLK 22Zinjanthropussite, Olduvai
Gorge (Tanzania): an experimental approach using cut-mark data by
Manuel Domínguez-Rodrigo. Journal of Human Evolution, Volume 33, Issue
6, December 1997, Pages 669-690

BTW, we ARE learning how to distinguish human toothmarks on gnawed
bones, and this can pull the carpet from under the feet of any
crackpot vegan theories. Admittedly, the dissertation might be of
little interest to anyone hell-bent on promoting their agenda, but
I'll post the link anyway.

http://www.dissertations.wsu.edu/The...ndt_050404.pdf

> > ... culturally conditioned, when did this culture in your
> > *opinion start and why?
>
> * * * * Records were not kept, pre-writing. *Do you really not
> understand culture??

Let me clarify, as you seem unable to understand. When, in your
opinion, did the meat-eating culture you were talking about start? Any
datable habitation sites with no evidence of omnivores (such as no
charred or cracked bones)? If so, what date is given to these?

[snip]

> * * * * Could you explain the FACT that people who transition to a
> mostly raw fruit and veg diet permanently stop having
> "colds/flus"?
> * * * * Or, are you going to claim that because -you- don't know any
> of hundreds of thousands of such people, they do not exist?

Again, since you claimed that flu is natural detoxing, could you
explain the 22 million dead I referred to above?

> > ...is that something has strenghtened your immune system.
>
> * * * * Eliminating the SOURCES of excessive mucus. * *
> * * * * See Arnold Ehret: The Mucusless Diet Healing Systemhttp://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B000FGEC1W/ref=sr_1_olp_2?ie=U...
>
> * * * * Obviously, stopping eating toxic, excessive, cooked animal
> protein and fats have an effect.
> * * * * Have you read TColin Campbell's The China Study?
> TCCampbell; The China Studyhttp://tinyurl.com/2v689m
> * * *videohttp://tinyurl.com/6lcda6
>
> * * * * This book describes the largest epidemiological study ever
> dine relating diet and currently-popular :degenerative
> diseases" and he found that consumption of animal protein
> and animal fat was THE causes of current "degenerative
> diseases".
> * * * * Are you ignorant of this work?

I'm aware of it, but since it has come under severe criticism for what
looks like severely flawed research (I have read reviews of it), I
don't think it would be worth my while.

> > .... I get every single cold and flu going, ...

What you snipped was something like: "my partner, who is on the SAME
DIET AS ME does not get any colds." Now explain that, if diet is such
a major factor in the issue.

[rest of promotional material snipped]

Dragonblaze

- Who did EVER hear of vegan dragons? -