Karen K wrote:
>> There are fortified vegan foods such as some brands of soy milk and
>> breakfast cereals. However if you're going to get enough B12 on a
>> vegan diet
>> you must take a supplement. You may also be missing out on some other
>> vitamins and minerals unless you include some eggs and milk in your
>> diet. If
>> nothing else I must insist you take a good multivitamin.
>
> There simply is no reason a vegan needs to be consuming eggs or milk at
> all. Milk especially is *not* a wholesome food these days.

It depends on the source of the milk, and the kind.

> I don't know
> what necessary nutrients you think you get from milk or eggs that you
> cannot obtain from non-animal sources, but for the record your statement
> is quite inaccurate.

Her statement was fair. Dairy can be a beneficial part of one's diet, and so can
eggs. Veg-ns make as many nutritional mistakes as omnivores, and they can be
every bit as dangerous over the long term. One of the biggest misconceptions
veg-ns can have is that their diet is automatically "better" in nutritional
value (much less the ****ed up ethical notions they perpetrate) than another.

http://www.healthandage.com/Home/gid2=1871
http://www.aeb.org/food/eggs-health.html

> Re the vitamin B-12, yes it is necessary to supplement this these days,
> either through fortified foods such as nutritional yeast and fortified
> soy milk, or by using a supplement. In days of yore this would not have
> been necessary.

Because people weren't religious zealots when it came to their food. Veg-nism,
in our culture, is an historical novelty. Our bodies, though, carry the wisdom
of natural selection. Our ancestors ate meat and dairy and eggs; they didn't
suffer iron, zinc, or B12 deficiencies at the rates found in vegans. Our
ancestors also didn't eat as much saturated fats and transfats, nor as much
simple sugar, as we do today. They were a bit leaner.

[T]he present consensus is that any B12 present in plant foods is likely
to be unavailable to humans and so these foods should not be relied upon
as safe sources....

The only reliable unfortified sources of vitamin B12 are meat, dairy
products and eggs. There has been considerable research into possible
plant food sources of B12. Fermented soya products, seaweeds and algae
have all been proposed as possible sources of B12. However, analysis of
fermented soya products, including tempeh, miso, shoyu and tamari, found
no significant B12.
http://www.vegsoc.org/info/b12.html

> The ultimate source of B-12 is from bacteria, for both
> humans and animals. Our clean, antiseptic society now prevents us from
> getting the bacterial input that would make supplementation unnecessary.
> Antibiotics, both in medications and residues in factory-raised animal
> foods, kill off bacteria in our mouths and guts that would provide B-12,
> and also our food is much cleaner than in our past. This is good from a
> disease perspective, but it makes supplementation of this one factor
> wise for long-term vegans.

Which is more important: living in a society where contagions periodically wipe
out significant portions of the population or supplementing one's peculiar diet
because of its inherent deficiencies?

> Most non-vegans have enough stored B-12 to last for years, by the way,
> unless they have absorption problems.

Absorption can also affect vegans, whose livers store increasingly less B12, BY
THE WAY, in which case the vegan diet is contraindicated.

> The majority of B-12 deficiency
> problems are due to faulty absorption, by the way.

That comes from comparing deficiencies among the whole population, BY THE WAY,
not isolated groups. It would stand to reason that absorption would be a
significant reason for deficiency in those who eat a balanced diet including
meat, eggs, and dairy. It completely begs the issue for the presence of such a
condition among vegans -- you know, those whose diet is intentionally deficient.

> For that reason, it
> may be best to supplement with sublingual B-12 tablets rather than
> relying on a multi-vitamin tablet.

Or B12 injections, particularly for vegans who willfully deprive themselves of
B12 *and* who just may have a hard time absorbing it.

> There are healthy vegan diets and unhealthy ones. If you concentrate on
> eating a varied diet of whole, relatively unprocessed foods, such as raw
> and lightly cooked vegetables of all kinds, sprouted and cooked legumes,
> cooked and sprouted whole grains, raw and lightly cooked fresh fruits,
> and modest amounts of nuts and seeds, you will be eating a very healthy
> diet that will likely be adequate in all the nutrients you need (other
> than the B-12).

And iron and zinc.

> If, on the other hand, you eat a vegan diet that
> displaces these wholesome foods with lots of oil, processed grains,
> sugars, etc., then you might find yourself very unhealthy. There's no
> magic in just eating a vegan diet, other than avoiding the plethora of
> toxic contaminants and food-borne illness that animal foods provide.

Food-borne illness rates are higher for produce than for animal-derived foods.
That includes sprouts and unpasteurized juices, not to mention salads.

> There is a lot of great information on vegan eating out on the internet.
> My favorite source of free information is found at
> http://www.drmcdougall.com , particularly the science part of his
> website and the newsletter archives, which are loaded with referenced
> science. A good book on the subject is "Becoming Vegan", which has been
> recommended on this newsgroup many times by many individuals. There's no
> doubt whatsoever that a good, healthy vegan diet is possible if you
> ditch the junk foods and make good choices.

Same is true with an omnivorous diet, which isn't inherently deficient in zinc,
iron, and B12.