Vain wrote:
> usual suspect posted on alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian

Nice, cross-posting. I'll paste in my replies from aaev. Now on to my remarkable
prose...

>>Diary products and eggs aren't byproducts of the farming industry
>>as I used to believe. Milk keeps the veal industry alive
>
> Good. The demand for veal is increasing again.
>
>>and eggs are
>>produced from birds which suffer terribly.
>
> No, they are not. You've apparently been watching propaganda video taken of
> the
> most extreme cases of abuse. Such cases are not the norm in agriculture, and
> in
> most cases the videos you've seen have been used to prosecute bad operators.
>
> "Birds which suffer terribly" don't lay good eggs. Stop pretending that
> farmers
> don't care about good products -- those are the ones that make them the most
> money.
> http://www.nda.agric.za/docs/eggprod/default.htm
> http://www.sp.uconn.edu/~mdarre/poul...factsheet.html
> http://ulisse.cas.psu.edu/ext/Comeggs.html
>
>>Adding these two products
>>to my -no- list improves my health
>
> Not necessarily. Where do you get your calcium, zinc, iron, B12, etc.? Are
> you
> getting all the essential amino acids?
>
>>and ensures I don't have anything
>>to do with the animal side of farming at all.
>
> It doesn't mean you have no blood on your hands. Many more animals die as a
> result of your vegan diet than would if you were to eat a diet of homegrown
> vegetables and grazed ruminants (including game).
>
> http://eesc.orst.edu/agcomwebfile/news/food/vegan.html
>
> The reality of your "cruelty-free" diet:
> http://www.bds.org.uk/Research/Silag...entperrier.htm
>
> <...>
>
>
> -------------------------------
> ==================
> -------------------------------
> heres my reply
> "> Adding these two products
> > to my -no- list improves my health
> Not necessarily. Where do you get your calcium, zinc, iron, B12, etc.? Are
> you
> getting all the essential amino acids?"
>
> Most farmers inject hormones into cows and hens to give a better "crop" of
> eggs and milk.

Liar, at least with respect to your claims about the use of hormones in poultry.

The US Department of Agriculture (USDA) prohibits the use of hormones in
the raising of hogs or poultry in the United States. Therefore all pork
and poultry products that carry the “no hormones administered” label
only represent the regulations that are already in place for pork and
poultry and should not be taken to mean that the manufacturer is doing
anything beyond USDA requirements for conventional pork and poultry
products.
http://www.eco-labels.org/label.cfm?LabelID=114

> These hormones cause medical problems for these animals,


Not in ALL animals to which they're administered.

> most
> of the "side effects" result in shortened life, extreme fatique, nerve
> damage, nausea, and Anemia(lowered rate of red blood cells in the body and
> lowered ratio of oxygen, happens to a women with aids, farmers must
> administer HIV medicine to counter this effect.)


Ipse dixit. Where did you get this disinformation?

> These hormones, transfer to
> the human body after digesting the milk, eggs.


Ipse dixit regarding milk, a *complete* *****ing* *lie* about eggs since
chickens are not given hormones. Ever!!!

Somatotropin, a growth hormone, is a new animal drug under investigation
for use in lactating dairy cows. The specific form of the drug is bovine
somatotropin (BST), which is prepared by micro-biological fermentation,
a process of bioengineering. When BST is administered to lactating cows
to improve productivity, the natural levels of the hormone (six parts
per billion) in the milk have remained essentially unchanged. Milk from
cows treated with BST has been declared safe for human consumption and,
under proper herd management, BST will enhance milk production.
http://www.ces.uga.edu/pubcd/B1084-W.HTML#Hormones

Despite FDA approval in 1985, several consumer groups have expressed
concern over the unforeseen medical problems, traces of antibiotics in
milk and meat products and the effect of the increase of insulin-like
growth factor (IGF-1). Some consumers doubt the credibility of
government organizations, thus doubting FDA reports. Another health
concern pertains to penicillin-based drugs (bactum-lactam), the most
commonly used, to treat mastitis. The FDA will have to monitor the
illegal use of these drugs to prevent allergic reactions in humans.
IGF-1 is present in the human dietary process and is identical to cow
IGF-1. Both rbST and IGF-1 are orally inactive. Consumers fear the
potential carcinogenic affects of higher concentrations of IGF-1 in
milk. IGF-1 stimulates intestinal cell growth, thus increased the risk
of abnormal intestinal growth. The levels of IGF-1 are 100-1000 times
lower than endogenous blood levels in humans, therefore, if IGF-1 is not
completely digested, there will be insignificant physiological effects
on humans and infants.
http://www.american.edu/TED/bst.htm

BST Human Safety is Verified by Five Independent Authorities
http://www.msue.msu.edu/msue/imp/modda/11119206.html

Etc.

> Even in this small amount,
> they may harm a women while on her period causeing many health problems, and
> men by lowering sperm count.


According to whom?

> The second thing--
> "Where do you get your calcium, zinc, iron, B12, etc.? Are you getting all
> the essential amino acids?"
> I get all them at twice the needed rate and more from a pill that is free of
> any products from animals.


Guess you're not a "back to nature" type. Pills aren't very natural.

> "It doesn't mean you have no blood on your hands. Many more animals
> die as a result of your vegan diet than would if you were to eat a diet of
> homegrown vegetables and grazed ruminants (including game)."
>
> That site that you got that from is bullshit, more animals live because of
> crops being grown,


Not when they're harvested. When the cover (grains, legumes, vegetables) is
cleared, the animals are vulnerable to predation. Don't just watch the buzzards
circling over the fields, watch the hawks and other birds of prey, too.

> most farmers allow these rats and rabbits ect, to graze on the crop,


Do they? Then why do they put out poisons and traps?

> the
> farmers industrial
> and small, see it as free natural feralizer, although there is a heightened
> loss of flies because
> of the rodents, the ratio of vegan to normal meat dieters animal death is
> aboot 30-to-10,000
> the 30 is natural while the 10k is separated aboot 9.6k non-natural to 300
> semi-natural 100 natural.


According to whom? You pulled this out of your smelly ass.

> So vegan"ism" is better for the world.


Only for some cows and pigs. Not for mice, birds, snakes, frogs, turtles,
skunks, rats, deer....

<...>

>> The reality of your "cruelty-free" diet:
>> http://www.bds.org.uk/Research/Silag...entperrier.htm