On Tue, 11 May 2004 17:30:28 +0100, ipse dixit > wrote:

>On Tue, 11 May 2004 09:23:35 -0700, "Dutch" > wrote:
>
>>"Rubystars" > wrote in message m...
>>> "ipse dixit" > wrote in message ...
>>> >
>>> > Here are "usual suspect's" quotes that Jonathan desperately
>>> > wants the reader to forget about (below).
>>> >
>>> > [start Mmhsb]
>>> > > natural predators & a natural life is cruel?
>>> > [usual suspect]
>>> > Yes. Watch the Discovery Channel sometime.
>>> > usual suspect http://tinyurl.com/2c9ac
>>> >
>>> > and
>>> >
>>> > "Ever seen what happens to various ruminants as they're
>>> > stalked and hunted by large cats? Slaughterhouses may
>>> > be messy, but they're not cruel."
>>> > Usual Suspect http://tinyurl.com/yu6eq
>>> >
>>> > and
>>> >
>>> > "Suffering results for all animals whether they're
>>> > eaten by humans or other animals. Indeed, many
>>> > other predators are less humane than humans."
>>> > usual suspect http://tinyurl.com/2ba7f
>>> >
>>> > It's clear from those quotes that "usual suspect" believes
>>> > natural predation is cruel while human predation isn't, but
>>> > both he and Jonathan Ball are doing their level best between
>>> > themselves to stop the readers on these animal related
>>> > groups getting to read them.
>>> >
>>> > They have lied, edited my posts, changed the newsgroup
>>> > titles to make replying to them awkward, and just about
>>> > anything they can think of. What a pair of liars, eh?
>>>
>>> I agree that when natural predation happens, the animal isn't being
>>> consciously cruel, but the animal who is killed does suffer, and that fact
>>> can't be diminished. There's no moral significance to this because the
>>> predator isnt making any kind of "decision" to do this, just following
>>> instincts.
>>>
>>> Human actions have moral significance because we can choose
>>> what to do. With that said, the fact that we provide slaughter
>>> that is often more humane than
>>> a death by predation in the wild would be, is a significant point to be
>>> made. After all, humans could attack a cow with spears or we could use
>>> humane slaughter methods including stunning.
>>
>>You've got it exactly right. Cruel also means simply causing pain and
>>suffering, based on that definition, nature is arguably more cruel than
>>captivity.
>
>PERFECT! Thanks for offering your stupidity to this, Dutch.

I JUST CAN'T STOP LAUGHING AT THIS. Dutch - what
the heck did you do that for - and at a time like this, too! Jeeze!
Well done though ;-) I can always rely on you.