"Isabella Woodhouse" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> "Marie Dodge" > wrote:
>
>> "Isabella Woodhouse" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> > In article >,
>> > "Marie Dodge" > wrote:
>> >
>> >> "Isabella Woodhouse" > wrote in message
>> >> ...
>
>> >> Two of our gardens are still producing. The west garden (squash,
>> >> peppers, eggplants and tomatoes) went down to the spider mites.
>> >> Little is left. The string beans were harmed by the organic
>> >> insecticides (Organicide and Need Oil) and some died.
>> >
>> > I've seen Organocide (fish & sesame oils) used for blackspot & powdery
>> > mildew on roses which don't seem to mind oily compounds used on them
>> > even regularly. But I honestly don't know how well beans, which are
>> > kind of fuzzy plants by nature, tolerate oil applications.
>>
>> Many of them didn't but nothing else was working people recommended.
>> Peppers
>> don't like the oils either. I lost one Pimento pepper plant. Others
>> dropped
>> a few leaves. The toms and eggs didn't seem to mind though. Neem Oil
>> was
>> useless but Organicide did finish off most of the white fly and a goodly
>> number of spider mites. The west garden plants were so severely damaged
>> by
>> the insects, spiders and sprays I doubt any will make a recovery and
>> produce
>> anything worth harvesting. Our first frost is 7 to 8 weeks away. The heat
>> and drought isn't helping matters any. I'm glad I have 3 gardens. Next
>> year
>> there will be 4. If one fails there will be the others......
>>
>> > We haven't had to use any this year but we've used Neem oil in the
>> > past and never had it damage anything.
>>
>> It doesn't kill anything off either. It doesn't do what they claim it
>> does.
>
> What specific claim was that?

That it stops nymphs from feeding and the the pests die out. I didn't see
where Neem did anything but lighten my wallet.

Neem oil is a better preventive than a
> cure. It does not usually work by outright killing insects (like
> Malathion or Sevin);

Here again, I used them BOTH and neither made much difference. There is so
much resistance or immunity in the pests today that many insecticides are
almost useless. The man at Lowe's told me he's hearing more complaints from
people every year that the insecticides aren't working as they did in the
past.

it's more of a disruptor of the natural life cycle
> of certain pests and helps to keep them from reproducing. It certainly
> does not work instantly on crops that are already severely compromised,
> like yours.

It didn't even slow down their reproduction or my crops would never have
gotten so infested. They were nowhere near that point when I started
spraying. I have a list of sprays used that had little or no effect on the
spider mites and whiteflies.

>> If I hadn't wasted weeks with organic pesticides that didn't work I
>> wouldn't
>> have lost the garden. By the time I became convinced Neem Oil and
>> Rotenone
>> were useless it was really too late.

> I read your posts in rec.gardens.edible where numbers of people gave you
> lots of prudent suggestions, most of which you rejected, sometimes with
> antagonism toward so-called organic measures.

Which ideas did I reject?

You were dosing your
> severely compromised plants with at least four or five different things
> including some extremely toxic poisons that are known to kill a large
> number of different helpful insect species.

If any helpful insect species were in the garden before I started spraying
the pests would never have gotten to such populations they killed the
plants. Where were all these helpful species when the pests first showed up?


And yet you seem so certain
> that it was the organic methods which ruined your garden and not the
> spider mites, white fly, squash vine borers, or anything else.

Think again........ it was the FAILURE of the organic methods that allowed
the insect population to reach such deadly numbers.

>> ...Organicide was the last thing on the list to try. It smells
>> terrible and doesn't pour well. It goes everywhere when you try and
>> pour it, adding to the stink. And that is also wasteful.


> Organocide is supposed to be applied as a spray. It stinks because it
> has fish oil in it. If you have difficulty with that smell, I'd
> recommend against ever using blood meal.

I know it's a spray and I know it contains fish oil. I can read the
directions on the bottle. I'm not illiterate. The blood meal sold here is
odorless but I can no longer afford to buy it or bone meal. When what I
have is gone, that's it. Pure organic is no longer for those of moderate
income.


> [...]
>> > One problem with using mainstream insecticides like the Sevin and
>> > Malathion you previously noted is that they are broad spectrum,
>> > extremely toxic, and also kill predators which feast on some of the
>> > pests you mentioned.

>> Apparently there were no predator insects to feed on them or they
>> wouldn't
>> have reached the numbers they did that stopped production dead in it's
>> tracks, turning the plants into those pics you saw. That was the damage
>> from the WFs and SMs, not the insecticides.
>
> And how many years have you been using Malathion, Sevin, and the like?

Since THIS SPRING since we never had this kind of infestation before. Next
you'll claim these sprays only kill the beneficial. Stop trying to blame the
sprays. The west garden laid fallow for 2 years besides it never seeing
sprays in the past.

>
>> > Once the natural balance is destroyed, it can take
>> > several years to restore it. I sure hope you can resolve some of these
>> > issues and have more fun with your gardens.
>>
>> Apparently there was no natural balance to start with - see above.
>
> I recall you saying you've had this property for over 20 years.


And THAT has what to do with he lack of beneficial insects? The west garden
is in it's 4th year. Last year and year before it was not used. Organic
matter was spread over it this spring. It was tilled and planted.... and
the pests showed up not too long after. Any and all beneficials had plenty
of time to feast on the mites and WF yet there were apparently none judging
by their rate or reproduction. Stop trying to put the blame on chemical
sprays. had I not wasted time with the damn useless Neem Oil and the other
useless organic crap (pyrethrum) and used something that actually worked,
the numbers would never have reached such astronomical proportions. Nor
would they if there were beneficials in the garden to start with. By the
time I switched to chemicals the damage to the plants was too severe for
them to recover. I thought the foul smelling Organicide was working on the
WF. I was wrong. Today when I checked the collards the number of whitefly
was the same as before.... so the Organicide didn't work on the WF after
all.

>
> Isabella
> --
> "I will show you fear in a handful of dust"
> -T.S. Eliot