Pennyaline wrote:
>
> On 8/12/2010 12:45, Pete C. wrote:
> >
> > Pennyaline wrote:
> >> So you DO think they have the right to use verbal and physical abuse,
> >> and to threaten our jobs because we won't let them injure themselves
> >> while they're inpatients?
> >
> > That depends on exactly what *you* are doing. Trying to force
> > "treatment" on someone who has clearly refused it constitutes criminal
> > assault, and the victim of such assault has every right to defend
> > themselves in any way necessary. They also have the right to have you
> > charged criminally for that assault.
>
> You comment tells me that you haven't really read my posts, or haven't
> read them with any intent of actual comprehension. Your responses so far
> tell me that you are just another of the entitled masses who think that
> everything must bend their way and everything else is wrong and unjust.

I've read you posts, and I disagree with them. You claim to know you are
not allowed to force care on someone who refuses it, however I'm aware
of many cases where medical service providers did just that, often with
serious consequences, so it is not an unfounded concern (I've spent a
lot of time with trial lawyers).

>
> >> Are all of your requests from health care workers within what is
> >> considered "ordinary" in the health care setting?
> >
> > I maintain a minimum of contact with the health care industry. My only
> > regular contact is my allergist who is great and has no problem dealing
> > with me as I expect. The only remotely unusual requirement I have is my
> > self administered allergy shots. I work from home, and live 60 miles
> > from my allergist, so it's certainly not an unreasonable expectation.
>
> That is neither unusual nor unreasonable. Patients are taught to
> self-inject all the time.

That was my point. As I said "remotely unusual".

>
> > My allergist has a number of patients/customers who do self administered
> > shots and many more who come into the office for shots. Certainly self
> > administered shots aren't appropriate for everyone, but that's not an
> > excuse to refuse them for everyone. At this point I've done about 300
> > shots and I'm still not dead yet, my allergies are also nonexistent now.
>
> Why would you be dead? We teach patients and their families to do
> injections routinely.

Exactly. My point however was that some egocentric doctors have an issue
with that.

>
> >> Patients have every right to refuse care as it is ordered. They do not
> >> have the right to alter their care arbitrarily and demand that we go
> >> along with it. Their insurance companies won't go along with it, either.
> >> It has nothing to do with ego. It's to do with why a patient was
> >> admitted and what they expect from hospitalization.
> >
> > They have a legal and human right to terminate any treatment at any time
> > for any reason. The only right you have is to *ask* them to sign a
> > release form indicating that they know what they are doing is against
> > your recommendations. You do not even have a right to force them to sign
> > such a release form, all you can do is note in their file that they left
> > against recommendations.
>
> We document the refusal of care, we document waiver offers, we document
> if waivers are signed or not. We do not "force" anyone to sign release
> forms, and we document it with witnesses signatures if they refuse to
> sign. Either way, persistent noncompliance with treatment gets patients
> discharged. If patients don't want medical treatment they shouldn't come
> to the hospital demanding help, and if they don't want to continue
> medical treatment once they start feeling better, they should go home.

That is the correct way, however that is not how things are always
handled.

>
> You have this thing going on in your head that everything we do is in
> violation of patient rights. Get over it

I've heard the court cases when you ilk have indeed violated patients
rights, often with fatal consequences, so don't try to tell me it
doesn't happen.

>
> >> We are not allowed to force ourselves on anyone refusing treatment. If
> >> they refuse, we leave it alone and the event is documented. If there are
> >> enough documented refusals the facility will discharge them.
> >
> > That part you have correct.
>
> I have all of it correct.
>
> >> They may
> >> not arbitrarily adjust the terms of their treatment as it suits them,
> >
> > That part you have incorrect. They have the right to specify a change in
> > terms at any time and for any reason. If you choose not to comply with
> > the specified change, all you can do is terminate the treatment that
> > they refused and discharge them.
>
> Yes, that's what I said.
>
> I've already said that they can specify changes, but that doesn't mean
> they'll get what they want.
>
> Patients do not write their own orders. If they don't want to comply
> with treatment while hospitalized, they need to go home and pursue their
> noncompliance there. When patients who sought treatment then choose to
> follow treatment, it is they who are considered out of compliance.

Those who disagree with the recommended treatment are frequently proven
to be correct in refusing it and have better results with a second
opinion from a more competent provider.

>
> >> just as an airline passenger may not put oversized items in overhead
> >> compartments, may not block the aisle, may not smoke in the bathroom,
> >> many not have as many drinks inflight as they damn well please, may not
> >> stand up and start collecting their items before the plane comes to a
> >> full stop... and may not abuse the crew about it.
> >
> > An entirely different situation.
>
> It's not. The mindset that airlines and flight attendants exist to kiss
> customer ass and do what they're told is the same attitude found in
> patients.

Care to tell me what the purpose of those flight attendants is then, if
it is not to service their customers? Certainly it isn't to be a puppet
to the safety video, nor is it to be a security guard. In the event of a
crash, the unseated flight attendants are more likely to be injured than
the seated passengers, so they can't be relied on for any evacuation
assistance. They aren't trained EMTs, so they can't be relied on to
provide emergency medical care in flight either. Getting coffee, pillows
and asking the obliviots to quiet their screaming hell-spawn are about
the only things the flight attendants are there to do.