On Jul 27, 12:52*pm, Janet Bostwick > wrote:
> On Tue, 26 Jul 2011 17:41:23 -0500, > wrote:
> *I found tha both the KA and the Zoji overbeat/knead the>dough, which is OK if you want a fine crumb. I prefer the Ciabatta
> >type open crumb, which IMHO must be done by hand.
>
> I've never found that mechanical kneading causes small crumb. *It's
> the handling after first rise that determines the crumb.

Yes, and the wetness of the dough etc. And over-rising is hardly a
problem - just give it a good kneading and let it rise again.
Following Elizabeth David, I believe in using a minimum starting
amount of yeast (about 1/8 teaspoon of dried yeast to a pound of
flour) with the result that I have very long rising times and quite
often forget about the dough until it has risen and collapsed again.
So many of my loafs have had three (or more) risings with kneadings in
between, and I think they taste better for it. And the bread has a
strong texture which makes it easy to slice thinly and put spreads on.

I used to knead by hand all the way, but these days I use the mixer (a
60-year-old Kenwood in my case) to do the initial mixing and kneading
to the point where the dough is no longer sticky, when I take over and
enjoy the tactility of it all.

LW