"Michel Boucher" > wrote in message
> "Farm1" > wrote in
>
>>>> It is indeed included at that site - page 9 of this:
>>>> http://www.winstonchurchill.org/imag..._educators/wc%
>>>> 20 statesman%20for%20all%20time.pdf
>>>
>>> So, to recap, someone (not Churchill) said: 'Democracy is the
>>> worst form of government except all those other forms that
>>> have been tried from time to time.'
>>
>> Someone, did indeed say that and that someone was Churchill.
>> What we don't know is the source to whom he was referring. We
>> don't know if Churchill was actually quoting someone else or
>> if the source he was referring to was himself.
>
> But the point of an attribution is that it is given to the first
> person to say it,

Indeed.

otherwise I could "say" it and insist I be
> given the attribution if the only reason you need is that you
> have "said" it. If you insist on innacuracies of that sort,
> quote attribution becomes largely meaningless.

Just because an attributed quote included "it has been said" does not mean
that the person saying that is not the originator.

Unless there is proof that someone else did say it then, like all good
etymological dictionaries, the person who can be prooved to be the first
person to say it IS the orginator.

If you wish to insist that Churchill is wrongly attributed as having said it
first, you'd need to know for certain that he wasn't the first to say it.
So, if it wasn't Churchill, who do you say it was?

As it stands, unless you can provide a cite that "it has [indeed] been said"
by someone else, as opposed to Churchill just using the "has been said" as a
device to add emphasis taht he wasnt alone in his thinking about this thing
called Democracy, then the record in Hansard is proof positive that it was
indeed Churchill who said it first.

Reinsertion of snipped part of post to show discussion about a different
Churchill quote:
">> According to Harold Nicholson's diary of 17 August 1950,
>> Churchill supposedly said "Naval Traditions? Monstrous.
>> Nothing but rum, sodomy, prayers and the lash."
>
> You say supposedly, I say not. No doubt he was again quoting and
> they were attributed to him by Nicholson. Wouldn't be the first
> time. The Churchill Museum site says:
>
> ""The only traditions of the Royal Navy are rum, sodomy and the
> lash." - -- Churchill's assistant, Anthony Montague-Browne said
> that although Churchill had not uttered these words, he wished he
> had."
end resinsertion.

>> Montague-Brown did not become Churchill's assistant until
>> several years AFTER Nicholson recorded Churchill's comment in
>> his diary.
>>
>> You are prepared to bleieve what an assistant says many years
>> after someone else records a Churchill saying but yet choose
>> to play semantics about what Churchill is recorded as saying
>> in Hansard.
>>
>> This is an example of classic usenet.
>
> Whadsamadda? You got your short pants in a knot?

Of course not. Just amused that classic usenet always seems to invariably
arise.

> Just because Montague-Browne (note spelling) came along AFTER
> Nicholson recorded it does not mean that Churchill did not admit
> to him he was not the originator of the quote.

I certainly think that is a possibility, however I am also wondering what
year Churchill is reputed to have said it to M-B and how good his memory was
by that stage.

I also note that neither M-B or the Churchill Museum site you quote didn't
even get the quote right that Nicolson included in his diary.

He didn't have to
> be there with Nicholson to be imparted that bit of knowledge. So
> I'm not saying Churchill didn't "say" it, I'm saying he was not
> the originator and therefore the quote cannot be attributed to
> him...and at some point, he admitted that.

There is no suggestion that anyone else other than Churchill said it
anywhere, or at any time.

Anyway, by the time Nicolson wrote the cite in his diary, Churchill would
have already been 75 years old and had already suffered his first stroke.
The year after Nicolson entered the quote in his diary, Churchill suffered
another stroke. I have no idea if M-B would be a reliable source for
anything but I do know that Nicholson does have such a reputation.