Dave Hill wrote:

>> My roommate.... stores the butter dish on the kitchen counter
>> instead of the refrigerator. I've just never heard of such a
>> thing and it's grossing me out.

It's grossing you out because you're assuming a lot of stuff instead=20
of actually looking into it.

> I nearly always keep butter on the kitchen counter. The butter is
> so much easier to spread. However, a big point: we use a lot of
> the stuff so it goes quickly. It's not like the same stick of
> butter sits there for three weeks.

And if it did, it would still be good unless your house is unusually=20
hot. Butter melts to a liquid around 93=B0F, but lower than that, it'll=20
hold its shape.

> And even on the counter, we still keep it covered.

Bugs and pets.

> Yes, butter *will* go rancid if it's left out too long, but you can
> always taste it the instant it starts to happen.

Well, no. Rancidity is a gradual thing. But the time it will take can
be measured in weeks

> Pretty difficult to get butter poisoning just for that reason. If
> it's bad enough to hurt you, you wouldn't want to eat it anyway.

Rancidity is a spoilage condition, not a one that will harm you. There
is no butter poisoning. Rancidity is an ongoing change in the fat
structure of the butter. Not to be confused with the smell of=20
unrefrigerated butter. Cold butter has virtually no smell, as most=20
cold things; room temp butter has a clean smell. After a time, you'll=20
probably be able to distinguish the smells of salted versus unsalted=20
butters. And sweet cream versus cultured butter.

> Butter is a dairy product, but it doesn't go bad nearly as quickly
> as milk does.

Not to be considered in the same breath. Milk spoils because of its
composition. Fat, protein, carbs and plenty of moisture. A veritable
petri dish for bacterial growth. But, here again, you need to
distinguish between spoilage bacteria and pathogenic ones. Spoilage
bacteria may well make it unpleasant to smell or eat, but they won't
hurt you. Pathogens will. They compete for nutrients and the spoilage
bacteria are stronger. Milk will hurt you only long past the time the
smell would choke a rat.

Butter is approximately 80% fat with the remainder being water, milk=20
solids and some minor other ingredients. Very little to spoil in there.

> I'd be queasy about milk that was left out for 6 hours. Butter?
> Not a problem at all. Two completely different animals there.

Milk left out for 6 hours at normal sorts of room temps will be
warmish milk. Spoilage takes a lot longer. Think more than 24 hours.
The suddenly different smell you notice is because the milk is warm
and warm things give off more volatiles to smell. It's no indication
of spoilage, it's what warm milk smells like.

Until the wholesale pasteurization of milk, people routinely left raw=20
milk to "clabber" at room temp. It was a useful kind of spoilage, like=20
yogurt or kefir or cultured cheeses. Now that we kill most of the=20
organisms - good and bad - in milk, the natural processes can't unfold=20
as they once did. But it's also why dairy products have so much longer=20
shelf lives. The spoilage and pathogenic critters are killed in the=20
ultra-pasteurization that most milk products are subjected to.

> Also, refrigeration is not necessarily a cure-all. I've tasted a
> *lot* more bad butter that came out of people's refrigerators than
> I ever have with butter that was out on the counter. For one
> thing, the stuff absorbs refrigerator odors like crazy. You've got
> to keep it unopened, or under thick plastic or metal. I sure
> wouldn't want to just schlep a half-eaten stick of butter back in
> the fridge without sealing it up somehow. *That's* what a lot of
> people do, and it's much nastier than butter sitting on the counter
> for a while.

Stretching it a bit here. Restaurants don't go to any trouble to
shield butter from odors beyond leaving it in the wrapper it comes
in. Paper. Butter will in the fullness of time absorb fridge odors,=20
but we're looking at weeks and weeks for it to be even remotely
significant. The business of sealing butter up after use is plain
silly. If it's around for less than a couple weeks, it'll be fine in
the fridge, wrapped or unwrapped. Put it in the butter keeper on the
door or in a butter dish and that's all it needs in reasonably normal use=
=2E

> Plus that, butter gets old in the refrigerator too. It just takes
> longer. Watch those expiration dates, and freeze it if you don't
> use it right away.

Forget all this stuff. Expiration dates have nothing to do with
anything except the law departments in the big milk packagers covering=20
their asses. Nothing to do with the food itself. Butter will get old=20
in the fridge after maybe 6 months. Still be usable; not as good as=20
fresher butter, but no big deal.

> And by the way, for people who mentioned peanut butter--- most
> store-bought brands really don't need to be refrigerated. Really!
> And if you do refrigerate peanut butter, just as some kind of
> obsessive thing, be very careful about microwaving it to "make it
> soft".

The "obsession" might be to keep it from separating. Or it might
simply be as misguided as your uninformed postulating about butter above.=


> Many brands of peanut butter use a foil seal. Unless you carefully
> remove every last molecule of foil when you first open the jar---
> which is nearly impossible--- it can spark and arc in the
> microwave.

Now we're in the bullshit zone. I just went downstairs and put a jar
of Jif Creamy in the mike for 15 seconds. There are little bits of=20
foil stuck to the rim because I'm not compulsive about it. Fired up=20
that 1100 watt baby and nary a spark. Total absence of arcs. But the=20
texture of the PB (ate some in the interests of science) was lovely.=20
Smooth, warm, soft and redolent with the scent of peanuts. Tasted a=20
couple times to be sure. Yep. Good.

Go read up on microwaves, what they are, how they work. Not some home=20
cook's website; the science of it. You'll find that metal can be put=20
into the cavity under lots of circumstances. And the odd snippet of=20
foil isn't the end of the world. "...every last molecule..." indeed.

I routinely put things like chocolate to melt in a bowl in the mike=20
with a spoon in it so I can stop it and stir the stuff. Likewise=20
scrambled eggs and a fork.

> Peanut butter also burns easily.

Mine didn't. YMMV.

Pastorio