"Bob (this one)" > wrote in
:

> Dave Hill wrote:
>
>>> My roommate.... stores the butter dish on the kitchen counter
>>> instead of the refrigerator. I've just never heard of such a thing
>>> and it's grossing me out.
>
> It's grossing you out because you're assuming a lot of stuff instead
> of actually looking into it.
>
>> I nearly always keep butter on the kitchen counter. The butter is
>> so much easier to spread. However, a big point: we use a lot of
>> the stuff so it goes quickly. It's not like the same stick of butter
>> sits there for three weeks.
>
> And if it did, it would still be good unless your house is unusually
> hot. Butter melts to a liquid around 93°F, but lower than that, it'll
> hold its shape.
>
>> And even on the counter, we still keep it covered.
>
> Bugs and pets.
>
>> Yes, butter *will* go rancid if it's left out too long, but you can
>> always taste it the instant it starts to happen.
>
> Well, no. Rancidity is a gradual thing. But the time it will take can
> be measured in weeks
>
>> Pretty difficult to get butter poisoning just for that reason. If
>> it's bad enough to hurt you, you wouldn't want to eat it anyway.
>
> Rancidity is a spoilage condition, not a one that will harm you. There
> is no butter poisoning. Rancidity is an ongoing change in the fat
> structure of the butter. Not to be confused with the smell of
> unrefrigerated butter. Cold butter has virtually no smell, as most
> cold things; room temp butter has a clean smell. After a time, you'll
> probably be able to distinguish the smells of salted versus unsalted
> butters. And sweet cream versus cultured butter.
>
>> Butter is a dairy product, but it doesn't go bad nearly as quickly as
>> milk does.
>
> Not to be considered in the same breath. Milk spoils because of its
> composition. Fat, protein, carbs and plenty of moisture. A veritable
> petri dish for bacterial growth. But, here again, you need to
> distinguish between spoilage bacteria and pathogenic ones. Spoilage
> bacteria may well make it unpleasant to smell or eat, but they won't
> hurt you. Pathogens will. They compete for nutrients and the spoilage
> bacteria are stronger. Milk will hurt you only long past the time the
> smell would choke a rat.
>
> Butter is approximately 80% fat with the remainder being water, milk
> solids and some minor other ingredients. Very little to spoil in there.
>
>> I'd be queasy about milk that was left out for 6 hours. Butter?
>> Not a problem at all. Two completely different animals there.
>
> Milk left out for 6 hours at normal sorts of room temps will be
> warmish milk. Spoilage takes a lot longer. Think more than 24 hours.
> The suddenly different smell you notice is because the milk is warm
> and warm things give off more volatiles to smell. It's no indication
> of spoilage, it's what warm milk smells like.
>
> Until the wholesale pasteurization of milk, people routinely left raw
> milk to "clabber" at room temp. It was a useful kind of spoilage, like
> yogurt or kefir or cultured cheeses. Now that we kill most of the
> organisms - good and bad - in milk, the natural processes can't unfold
> as they once did. But it's also why dairy products have so much longer
> shelf lives. The spoilage and pathogenic critters are killed in the
> ultra-pasteurization that most milk products are subjected to.
>
>> Also, refrigeration is not necessarily a cure-all. I've tasted a
>> *lot* more bad butter that came out of people's refrigerators than
>> I ever have with butter that was out on the counter. For one
>> thing, the stuff absorbs refrigerator odors like crazy. You've got
>> to keep it unopened, or under thick plastic or metal. I sure
>> wouldn't want to just schlep a half-eaten stick of butter back in
>> the fridge without sealing it up somehow. *That's* what a lot of
>> people do, and it's much nastier than butter sitting on the counter
>> for a while.
>
> Stretching it a bit here. Restaurants don't go to any trouble to
> shield butter from odors beyond leaving it in the wrapper it comes
> in. Paper. Butter will in the fullness of time absorb fridge odors,
> but we're looking at weeks and weeks for it to be even remotely
> significant. The business of sealing butter up after use is plain
> silly. If it's around for less than a couple weeks, it'll be fine in
> the fridge, wrapped or unwrapped. Put it in the butter keeper on the
> door or in a butter dish and that's all it needs in reasonably normal
> use.
>
>> Plus that, butter gets old in the refrigerator too. It just takes
>> longer. Watch those expiration dates, and freeze it if you don't use
>> it right away.
>
> Forget all this stuff. Expiration dates have nothing to do with
> anything except the law departments in the big milk packagers covering
> their asses. Nothing to do with the food itself. Butter will get old
> in the fridge after maybe 6 months. Still be usable; not as good as
> fresher butter, but no big deal.
>
>> And by the way, for people who mentioned peanut butter--- most
>> store-bought brands really don't need to be refrigerated. Really!
>> And if you do refrigerate peanut butter, just as some kind of
>> obsessive thing, be very careful about microwaving it to "make it
>> soft".
>
> The "obsession" might be to keep it from separating. Or it might
> simply be as misguided as your uninformed postulating about butter
> above.
>
>> Many brands of peanut butter use a foil seal. Unless you carefully
>> remove every last molecule of foil when you first open the jar---
>> which is nearly impossible--- it can spark and arc in the microwave.
>
> Now we're in the bullshit zone. I just went downstairs and put a jar
> of Jif Creamy in the mike for 15 seconds. There are little bits of
> foil stuck to the rim because I'm not compulsive about it. Fired up
> that 1100 watt baby and nary a spark. Total absence of arcs. But the
> texture of the PB (ate some in the interests of science) was lovely.
> Smooth, warm, soft and redolent with the scent of peanuts. Tasted a
> couple times to be sure. Yep. Good.
>
> Go read up on microwaves, what they are, how they work. Not some home
> cook's website; the science of it. You'll find that metal can be put
> into the cavity under lots of circumstances. And the odd snippet of
> foil isn't the end of the world. "...every last molecule..." indeed.
>
> I routinely put things like chocolate to melt in a bowl in the mike
> with a spoon in it so I can stop it and stir the stuff. Likewise
> scrambled eggs and a fork.
>
>> Peanut butter also burns easily.
>
> Mine didn't. YMMV.
>
> Pastorio


Thanks for this well reasoned post. I chose not to trim anything because I
thought it worth repeating.

Big J

-----