Kent H. wrote:

> Normal saltiness or iso osmolarity occurs with one tsp of table
> salt/quart of brine. 1/4 cup of salt/quart of brine is 12 times normal
> saltiness. That's very salty.=20

"Normal" saltiness and iso-osmolarity are utterly irrelevant to the=20
issue of culinary flavor brining.

The functional capacities of diffusion and osmosis are the issues.

> Half that or 1 oz table salt per quart of
> brine is salty enough to brine, and allows you to brine a longer time t=
o
> fully penetrate the fowl or pork you are trying to alter.=20

In tests done by Russ Parsons, he established that a a 5% to 7% salt=20
solution (up to 2/3 cup salt per gallon) was a good level. "How to=20
Read a French Fry." Good book. And he posts to a mailing list I hang=20
out on and we've discussed it.

Alton Brown makes several variant brines that a 1) 2 quarts liquid=20
to 1/2 cup kosher salt and 1/4 cup sugar. Or, 2) 2 gallons of liquid=20
to 1 1/2 cups kosher salt and 1/2 cup brown sugar and a 6-ounce=20
container of frozen orange juice. Or, for brining and braising short=20
ribs, 3) 1/2 gallon dark beer, 1 quart ice water, 2 quarts beef stock,=20
1/2 cup red wine, 1 pound brown sugar (ca 2 1/4 cups), 1 cup kosher=20
salt, mirepoix. This last is brine (without the stock and mirepoix)=20
and cooking liquid which he suggests reducing to serve with the meat.=20
Apparently not too salty at this concentration or in reduction. "I'm=20
Just Here For The Food." Good book.

Shirley Corriher has another view, she puts a cup of salt into her=20
somewhat more loosely-defined brine. She says to put the chicken into=20
a pot just large enough to hold it, put in the cup of salt and ice=20
water to cover. I just measured what that would be on one of my pots=20
and it came to around 3 quarts of water. "Cookwise." Great book.

Penetration doesn't seem to be a problem to these people or to me in=20
the literally hundreds of chickens and other meats I've brined.

Brining longer with a lower concentration doesn't seem like a benefit=20
to me. And others say it doesn't work very well. Here's a quote from=20
the Weber site that quotes Cook's Illustrated magazine where the=20
current passion for brining came from:

<<<<<<<<<< quote >>>>>>>>>>>>> =09
Low-Salt Brining Doesn't Work
Some people find that flavor brined meat is just too salty for their=20
tastes. Will a flavor brine still work if you cut the amount of salt=20
in half? Not according to the November/December 2002 issue of Cook's=20
Illustrated magazine.

Cook's brined shrimp, pork chops, and whole chicken in a full-strength=20
solution and a half-strength solution for 1 hour per pound. After=20
cooking and tasting, they found that the meats brined at half-strength=20
were a lot less salty than those brined at full-strength, but the=20
improvement in moisture content was marginal, at best. In fact, for=20
shrimp and chicken, Cook's felt that there was no point in flavor=20
brining at half-strength at all.

http://www.virtualweberbullet.com/brining.html
<<<<<<<<<< end quote >>>>>>>>>>>>

> Sugar adds to
> the solute load, and helps you to attain a curing effect with less salt=
=2E

Flavor brining isn't a curing process. Curing is generally defined as=20
a preservation process. Brining as done for flavor enhancement at=20
these concentrations isn't preservative.

> I don't think 1/4 cup of sugar makes turkey or ham taste like "lunch
> meat", whatever lunch meat tastes like.=20

If you don't know what it tastes like why do you assert it doesn't=20
taste like it? I don't believe I included ham in my comments, just=20
turkey. I don't brine cured hams. Processed ones don't need it as it's=20
already been done. Fresh hams I do as whole roasts that I brine=20
lightly (concentrated but for a short time), but with very little=20
sugar. I prefer a glaze. One man's tastes.

> I use 1/8 cup table salt, or 1/4 cup kosher salt and 1/4 cup sugar per
> quart of brine with good results and no "lunch meat" characteristic in
> the finished product.

But, as ever, Everybody'sMMV. I'm glad you like it.

Pastorio


> Bob Pastorio wrote:
>=20
>>Kent H. wrote:
>>
>>
>>>For one gallon of brine you need 1 cup of sugar, especially with turke=
y.
>>>You can use half that much salt, one oz. by vol./quart or 1/2 cup if y=
ou
>>>want to reduce the salty taste and brine for a longer time.
>>
>>My experience with that much sugar is that it makes the turkey taste
>>like "lunchmeat" rather than a whole-muscle roasted or deep-fried
>>turkey. In addition to the salt and sugar, I use a combination of
>>other seasonings that have no effect on saltiness or sweetness. They
>>include: garlic, sage, thyme, marjoram, lemon zest. Occasionally, I'll
>>add other seasonings if the rest of the meal has some emphasis that
>>would benefit from it - I added tarragon once when the plan was to use
>>B=E9arnaise as a sauce instead of the more normal gravy. Another time, =
I
>>added a good bit of lemon juice when some of the accompaniments had
>>fruit in them.
>>
>>I've tested brines in these ratios with 1 gallon water as the base, to
>>which was added:
>>1 cup salt, 1 cup sugar - tasted like "turkey loaf"
>>1/2 cup salt, 1 cup sugar - taste like a school lunch turkey sandwich
>>1/2 cup salt, 1/2 cup sugar - turkey loaf but less strongly flavored
>>1 cup salt, 1/2 cup sugar - firm meat, but tasted processed
>>1 cup salt, 1/4 cup sugar - had a very slightly processed flavor, but
>>it added a nice flavor note and texture was good
>>1 cup salt, no sugar - had the strongest turkey flavor, meat texture a
>>bit more coarse.
>>
>>When I dried the turkey to get a nice pellicle, it was thickest and
>>most noticeable with the most sugar, but it ended up with a distant
>>but detectable sweetness in the skin which I didn't like. Hung the
>>birds in a large cooler and aimed a fan at them to get that shiny, dry
>>surface that makes them so good. One guy's preferences.
>>
>>Everybody's MMV.
>>
>>Pastorio
>>
>>
>>>Bob Pastorio wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>mrs_cruella wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>I'm considering brining our Thanksgiving turkey this year (normally =
a
>>>>>12-15 pound bird). I'm a little leary of trying this for the "big
>>>>>day"--but I'm also one of those cooks who tries out new entrees on
>>>>>guests!
>>>>>
>>>>>One of the things that I'm particularly concerned about is the gravy=
=2E
>>>>>I have heard from some sources that gravy made from the pan dripping=

>>>>>comes out very salty. Has this been your experience?
>>>>
>>>>Yes. The "purge" from a brined turkey is saltier than I like to use
>>>>for a gravy. I make mine from parts bought separately and/or trimming=
s
>>>
>>>>from other birds.
>>>
>>>>>Is brining really worth it? (I cook the dressing in the crockpot,
>>>>
>>>>so brining
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>wouldn't be an issue there.)
>>>>
>>>>Yes, I think it is. The birds are more moist, more tender, more
>>>>forgiving of temperature variation in the oven and they cook a tad
>>>>more quickly.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>I would welcome any tips, hints, and your favorite brine recipes!
>>>>
>>>>1 gallon of water
>>>>1 cup of salt
>>>>1/4 cup sugar (optional)
>>>>seasonings, your usual
>>>>
>>>>Figure 24 hours for every 6 to 8 pounds of bird.
>>>>
>>>>Cook as usual. I've been cooking them recently in a convection oven n=
o
>>>>hotter than 225F to 160F in the thigh and let them rest for 20 minute=
s
>>>>or so before carving.
>>>>
>>>>Pastorio