"Samartha" > wrote in message =
news:mailman.1098587950.25007.rec.food.sourdough@w ww.mountainbitwarrior.c=
om...

> I am not sure if we are entering the alkaline starter realm again. =
I'll try=20
> anyway ...

Seems you may have learned the art of debate from the presidential
candidates.

> Hey - you are cracking me up :-) - that's almost like Roy Basan's =
statement ...

Argumentum ad hominum -- a powerful tool of deceit!=20

> If you have not "heard" it, maybe because this is a text based forum =
and my=20
> web site is not yet acoustically equipped.

Easy to do with sound files and simple HTML commands. =20

> I do it all the time (deflating) when possible for the reasons given =
in my=20
> first post in this thread and it's also shown on my growing a starter =
from=20
> scratch web pages. Without deflating, it just would not work.

Perhaps your experience is deviant. Anyway, I have never heard of=20
growing a starter from scratch web pages.

> Using chopsticks for any argument of comparison is totally futile =
because=20
> they can break easily.

You must have some pretty cheap chopsticks. Mine I'd need both hands
to break. But, of course, my fingers are not energized by rolfing =
muscles.

> If you only use rising height without punchdown (deflating) for =
determining=20
> maturity, you are fooling yourself quite a tad more than usual.

Self deception is a comfort at my age and in these times. For instance, =

I deceive myself that the bread I make is OK, sometimes even quite good.
I put my faith in the President knowing that he will keep me safe.
I take my prescribed medications and believe I am benefited by them.
Etc.

> This specifically won't work. You may reach maximum height and=20
> even partial collapse way before maturity if you don't punch down=20
> and observe new gas development.

If the batter/sponge is taken at a time beyond max. height, there is
a high risk of gluten degeneration. That is probably the most important
discovery I have made.=20

> I find that without measuring pH, the only way to get a handle=20
> on the maturity state is observation of gas development after=20
> punchdown.

I would like to have better tests. Sometimes I think about adding
an indicator dye to the mix or collecting the emitted gas in a balloon
or cylinder over water. But until then, or until putting a pH meter =
into
operation, the height test serves pretty well. Please consider my
innate frugality and essential minimalism.

> > > Organisms benefit from oxygen.
> > Not always.
> Incorrect, with established sourdoughs - always!
> You may not be informed (->have heard) about foam sourdough=20
> procedures, where in the initial (starter) growing stages, the =
starter=20
> is aerated by stirring to obtain a foamy mixture.

Once the starter is incorporated into dough or batter, movement of=20
gases and nutrients is diffusion limited. That situation may be =
ameliorated=20
by stirring or by agitation. Stirring is probably most important for =
the
purpose of bringing nutrients closer.

> To make a foamy mixture with almost all the water of the dough=20
> and all the rye going in as a first mixing step for the final dough =
appears=20
> to help and produces excellent taste and structure in mixed rye/white=20
> breads IME.

I believe that your traditional rye-wheat breads are traditionally =
denser=20
than the cotton-candy textures I am seeking to achieve in my all-white
sourdough breads. There is no doubt that you are succeeding quite well.

My experience continues to suggest that manipulations of the preferments
done in the interest of flavoring the finished bread are futile, =
notwithstanding
the high fermentational activity is very important at all prebake =
stages.

---
DickA