Bob (this one) wrote:
> ilaboo wrote:
>
>> Wayne Boatwright wrote:
>>
>>> "Bob (this one)" > wrote in
>>> :
>>>
>>>> If tenderizing is your intent, this is rather a strange way to go
>>>> about it. Do keep in mind that any sort of tenderizing, whether
>>>> mechanical or chemical, causes cellular leakage. Cellular leakage
>>>> means that the meat will consist largely of cell walls. They carry
>>>> no flavor or moisture. It means dead-flavored and textured meats.
>>>>
>>>> Pastorio
>>
>>
>> this may or not be true--if the appropriate salt solution is used the
>> cells will just swell but not burst.
>
>
> What I said is true, documented by others. The notion I referred to
> above is about tenderizing. Mechanical tenderizing like pounding or
> running through a "cuber" machine breaks/cuts cells and permits the
> cellular fluids to leak out. Likewise, chemical tenderizing, using
> papain or some other commercial compounds, will also cause cellular
> rupture. Both mean that there will be "purge" or loss of liquids before
> cooking.
>
> Brining won't cause cellular rupture. It doesn't release fluids from the
> meats, it causes meats to take them up and hold until the protein
> denatures from either chemical "cooking" like adding strong acids or
> cooking through heat in the traditional methods.
>
>> i am under the impression that the flavor of meats are due to proteins
>> mainly ---
>
>
> Nope. The *structure* of meat is primarily due to protein. Flavors come
> from cellular fluids and fats.
>
>>> What about meat preparation for Swiss steak and chicken fried steak
>>> where pounding the meat considerably is requisite to the end
>>> product? In fact, meat put through a tenderizer is also a common
>>> practice for chicken fried steak. I don't notice a problem with the
>>> meat in those cases.
>>>
>> i am not looking for a specific way to tenderize steak by using
>> seltzer--the theoretical reason is that as the gas expands it will
>> separate tissue allowing brine solution etc permeate the meat faster.
>> i have e injected it once and what it did was to really separate the
>> muscle fibers--rather drastically!
>
>
> You're confused about the structure of meat. Fibers contain the cells.
> The spaces between fibers is empty. The fibers you're talking about -
> what you see when you shred meat or what you see when cutting it - *are*
> meat. Getting between them is a rather meaningless concept for treating
> meat. Your assumption is that the gases will somehow get into the meat
> but only between the cells. It's not going to happen unless you put it
> under pressure.
>
>> so far the best tenderizer i have found is to inject plain yogurt into
>> the flesh--left no yogurt flavor but was a fantastic tenderizer.
>
>
> Yogurt is acid. The lactose has been converted to lactic acid and that
> tenderizes the meat by denaturing the protein. There are many better
> ones. Papain (extracted from papayas) or the juice of figs or pineapple
> will do a creditable job, but for different physical reasons.
>
>> i incidently tried flavored yogurt but the flavor did not come
>> thru--tried mango/orange
>>
>> after 8 hours in dye colored plain water--chicken had less that 1/8
>> inch permeation of dye into tissue--there was no difference in
>> permeation from either muscle fibers on edge along bone or from skin.
>
>
> If you're only using dye, you won't get much penetration; flesh is
> designed to be waterproof unless some drastic changes are made to it.
> Add some food coloring to a standard brine mixture and watch it
> penetrate. The solutes in the brines create at least two different
> mechanisms to have the brine taken up by the meat. They're osmosis and
> diffusion. Go read about them.
>
>> i am coming to the conclusion that brining only affects a very little
>> about of tissue if the meat is just soaked in the brine--brine to be
>> effective has to be injected into the meat-- or multiple punctures (
>> this probably has very little effect on flow thru tissue) or large
>> slashes have to be make
>
>
> This is pure guesswork on your part and is wrong. Do yourself and
> everyone else a favor and go read about brining from some reliable
> sources who understand the physiology of meat and the physics of the
> processes at hand. As it stands, your guesses are leading you in the
> wrong directions.
>
> Brining is a technique that likely goes back to prehistoric times.
> You're trying to reinvent an already well-defined wheel without doing
> any homework.
>
>> next experiment is to soak for a given time and then cook and see if
>> dye permeates further--suspect it will because of the increase in
>> temperature.
>
>
> This is what I mean. Temperature isn't the reason it will permeate
> better. Denaturing the protein is why. But the process will reverse when
> it reaches an appropriate temperature (which varies from meat to meat)
> and most of the liquids will be purged.
>
> Pastorio
>
ma da fa vortata
|