choro-nik wrote:
> "karapanomanolokopoulos" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> > >I have come across Greeks claiming that tzatziki (djacjik in
Turkish
> > written
> >>cacik) is a Greek dish even when you have borrowed the name
directly
> > from
> >>Turkish and Greekefied it using Tz for the Turkish dj sound
> > (represented by
> >>the letter c in the Turkish alphabet) when you don't even have that
> > sound in
> >>the Greek alphabet.
> > Name cannot say all about the origins, plus the modern Turkish
language
> > is a result of linguistic engineering.
>
> I doubt that you understand the "linguistic engineering" of the
Turkish
> language. What was done was to change the old Ottoman script to the
Latin
> alphabet. Besides that not much was changed apart from some words
that had
> crept into the language from Persian and Arabic the roots of which
were not
> immediately understood by the population at large. These words were
replaced
> by words derived from original Turkish roots. One good example is
Muallim
> (teacher) which was derived Ilim (knowledge) and Alim (someone of
great
> knowledge) and to Muallim (someone who teaches knowledge). Ogrenme
was a
> root Turkish word meaning to learn known by all and sundry from the
highest
> court official in the Ottoman Empire to the lowliest peasant. From
Ogren
> (learn) and Ogret (teach) Ogretmen was developed to mean somebody who
> teaches, i.e. a teacher. So Muallim became Ogretmen. Student became
Orgenci
> which means learner i.e. student instead of the old Talebe the root
word
> for which is lost to the average Turk. Elbise became Giysi from
Giy/mek
> meaning to wear. Giy means Wear. The -mek suffix changes Wear to To
Wear. So
> you see Giy (Wear - verb) to Giysi (something that is worn). Nothing
> sensational here. Oku means Read, Okumak is To Read. Okul became a
School
> instead of the older Mektep. But actually, over 90 percent of the
language
> did not change at all. I hope my examples explain what you call
"linguistic
> engineering" which was far lesser in its scope than you seem to
imagine.
> Article 215 - Praising a committed crime or a person who committed
this
crime: up to 2 years (if committed by the means of media, to be
increased one-half).
Article 216 (new form of Article 312) - Instigating a part of the
people having different social class, race, religion, sect or region to
hatred or hostility against another part of the people in a way
dangerous for the public security: up to 3 years (if committed by the
means of media, to be increased one-half).
Article 220/8 (new form of Article 169) - Propaganda of an organization
founded for committing crime: up to 3 years (if committed by the means
of media, to be increased one-half).
Article 285 - Spreading confidential information on a legal
investigation: up to up to 3 years (if committed by the means of media,
to be increased one-half).
Article 300 (new form of Article 158) - Insulting the President of the
Republic: up to 4 years (if committed by the means of media, to be
increased one-third).
Article 301 (new form of Article 145) - Insult to the Turkish flag or
to anything having the Turkish State's symbol (crescent and star): up
to 3 years (if committed by a Turkish citizen abroad: to be increased
one-third); Insult to the Turkish national anthem: up to 2 years (if
committed by a Turkish citizen abroad: to be increased one-third).
Article 302 (new form of Article 159) - Insulting the Turkish national
identity, the Republic or the Grand National Assembly of Turkey: up to
3 years (if committed by a Turkish citizen abroad: to be increased
one-third); Insulting the Turkish Government, the judicial organs,
military or security institutions: up to 2 years (if committed by a
Turkish citizen abroad: to be increased one-third).
> Or if you are aware of the English legalese and the movement towards
plain
> English in contracts and other such documents, you will better
understand
> the scope of the changes in the Turkish language in the 20th century.
It
> certainly did not become a language that people could not understand
but
> rather the reverse in that everybody could understand the written and
spoken
> word without having to study long years to learn the foreign root
words and
> how other words were developed from those foreign root words .
> Article 215 - Praising a committed crime or a person who committed
this
crime: up to 2 years (if committed by the means of media, to be
increased one-half).
Article 216 (new form of Article 312) - Instigating a part of the
people having different social class, race, religion, sect or region to
hatred or hostility against another part of the people in a way
dangerous for the public security: up to 3 years (if committed by the
means of media, to be increased one-half).
Article 220/8 (new form of Article 169) - Propaganda of an organization
founded for committing crime: up to 3 years (if committed by the means
of media, to be increased one-half).
Article 285 - Spreading confidential information on a legal
investigation: up to up to 3 years (if committed by the means of media,
to be increased one-half).
Article 300 (new form of Article 158) - Insulting the President of the
Republic: up to 4 years (if committed by the means of media, to be
increased one-third).
Article 301 (new form of Article 145) - Insult to the Turkish flag or
to anything having the Turkish State's symbol (crescent and star): up
to 3 years (if committed by a Turkish citizen abroad: to be increased
one-third); Insult to the Turkish national anthem: up to 2 years (if
committed by a Turkish citizen abroad: to be increased one-third).
Article 302 (new form of Article 159) - Insulting the Turkish national
identity, the Republic or the Grand National Assembly of Turkey: up to
3 years (if committed by a Turkish citizen abroad: to be increased
one-third); Insulting the Turkish Government, the judicial organs,
military or security institutions: up to 2 years (if committed by a
Turkish citizen abroad: to be increased one-third).
> Mongols do various yoghurt
> > sauces, but none of it is close to tzatziki. The closest I've seen
it
> > outside Greece and the middle east is India, though their version
is a
> > lot thinner. I think they even add liquid to the yoghurt and blend
it.
> > Frankly, I don't know what its origin is, but if it is mongolian,
it's
> > a heavily modified version of anything in existence in Central
Asia.
> > Those are much more heavily seasoned and both texture and taste is
> > different.
> Article 215 - Praising a committed crime or a person who committed
this
crime: up to 2 years (if committed by the means of media, to be
increased one-half).
Article 216 (new form of Article 312) - Instigating a part of the
people having different social class, race, religion, sect or region to
hatred or hostility against another part of the people in a way
dangerous for the public security: up to 3 years (if committed by the
means of media, to be increased one-half).
Article 220/8 (new form of Article 169) - Propaganda of an organization
founded for committing crime: up to 3 years (if committed by the means
of media, to be increased one-half).
Article 285 - Spreading confidential information on a legal
investigation: up to up to 3 years (if committed by the means of media,
to be increased one-half).
Article 300 (new form of Article 158) - Insulting the President of the
Republic: up to 4 years (if committed by the means of media, to be
increased one-third).
Article 301 (new form of Article 145) - Insult to the Turkish flag or
to anything having the Turkish State's symbol (crescent and star): up
to 3 years (if committed by a Turkish citizen abroad: to be increased
one-third); Insult to the Turkish national anthem: up to 2 years (if
committed by a Turkish citizen abroad: to be increased one-third).
Article 302 (new form of Article 159) - Insulting the Turkish national
identity, the Republic or the Grand National Assembly of Turkey: up to
3 years (if committed by a Turkish citizen abroad: to be increased
one-third); Insulting the Turkish Government, the judicial organs,
military or security institutions: up to 2 years (if committed by a
Turkish citizen abroad: to be increased one-third).
> Look, English ales are not all the same but they are all ales of one
sort or
> another. To the English Ale enthusiast the minutest differences are
> extremely important. To me they are all similar, rather flat and not
to my
> taste. I prefer Lagers and Pilsners though I must admit I have had
some
> lovely beers that strictly fall into the Ale category.
>
> Same with Djadjik. If you don't mind I will write in as it would have
to be
> written in English so those others following our conversation can
pronounce
> it properly. I know that the Indian Raita is the Indian Djadjik.
However,
> don't forget the Mogul rule of India. Those Moguls who ruled India
were
> acArticle 215 - Praising a committed crime or a person who committed
this
crime: up to 2 years (if committed by the means of media, to be
increased one-half).
Article 216 (new form of Article 312) - Instigating a part of the
people having different social class, race, religion, sect or region to
hatred or hostility against another part of the people in a way
dangerous for the public security: up to 3 years (if committed by the
means of media, to be increased one-half).
Article 220/8 (new form of Article 169) - Propaganda of an organization
founded for committing crime: up to 3 years (if committed by the means
of media, to be increased one-half).
Article 285 - Spreading confidential information on a legal
investigation: up to up to 3 years (if committed by the means of media,
to be increased one-half).
Article 300 (new form of Article 158) - Insulting the President of the
Republic: up to 4 years (if committed by the means of media, to be
increased one-third).
Article 301 (new form of Article 145) - Insult to the Turkish flag or
to anything having the Turkish State's symbol (crescent and star): up
to 3 years (if committed by a Turkish citizen abroad: to be increased
one-third); Insult to the Turkish national anthem: up to 2 years (if
committed by a Turkish citizen abroad: to be increased one-third).
Article 302 (new form of Article 159) - Insulting the Turkish national
identity, the Republic or the Grand National Assembly of Turkey: up to
3 years (if committed by a Turkish citizen abroad: to be increased
one-third); Insulting the Turkish Government, the judicial organs,
military or security institutions: up to 2 years (if committed by a
Turkish citizen abroad: to be increased one-third).
tually Turks or Turkic. They spoke Turkish or rather a Turkic dialect
and
> introduced their customs, cuisine etc to India. In the end they were
> assimilated by India but that is another story. And for your
information
> King Farouk of Egypt grew up in a household where Turkish was the
everyday
> language spoken. In fact King Farouk's father visited Cyprus in the
30s and
> my father was assigned to be his guide during his visit and they
spoke in
> Turkish even though both knew English. According to my father they
engaged
> in long personal conversations on the ex-King's yacht which was
actually a
> large steamer. Turkish was the ex-King's "mother tongue". King Farouk
was
> the first of that line of kings who spoke French at home no doubt due
to his
> education. Up to the time of his father who was ousted by the
British at
> the time, Turkish was the language spoken in the palaces of the
Egyptian
> Royal household. I am sure that that family have also been
assimilated into
> the Egyptian society -- apart from those who left Egypt, of course.
>
> During his visit the unruly ex-King who was ousted by the British in
favor
> or his son Farouk, the spoilt brat, was also invited to a dinner laid
in his
> honor by the Kykko Monastery. When everybody was seated they were all
> waiting for the King to start eating but he kept sitting still and
after a
> while the Abbot leaned toward him to tell him that everybody was
waiting for
> him to start whereupon the ex-King asked but where is Mr So-and-So? I
can't
> start eating without him being with us, whereupon the abbot quickly
sent
> somebody to fetch my brother from the other dining hall for the run
of the
> mill monks to the dining hall of the hierarchs. Sometimes, I feel
that I
> should have got my father to talk into a Walkman to relate his
memoirs. And
> he certainly knew a lot of people and a lot of things that would have
made
> quite an interesting book of memoirs. But there, how many of us ever
get
> round to doing the important things in life as we sp through with
life?
>
> Sorry, I know I am going a bit at a tangent, a bit off the main topic
but
> hopefully what I have written will show to you that the use of the
Turkish
> language is more widespread in the world that you probably are aware
of.
> Many Cypriots may also find the glaring differences between the
father and
> the French speaking playboy King Farouk proved himself to be. Many
Cypriots
> of the older generation will remember Farouk's visits to the gambling
dens
> in Cyprus and his degenerate life style as opposed to his serious
> gentlemanly father's life style.
> Article 215 - Praising a committed crime or a person who committed
this
crime: up to 2 years (if committed by the means of media, to be
increased one-half).
Article 216 (new form of Article 312) - Instigating a part of the
people having different social class, race, religion, sect or region to
hatred or hostility against another part of the people in a way
dangerous for the public security: up to 3 years (if committed by the
means of media, to be increased one-half).
Article 220/8 (new form of Article 169) - Propaganda of an organization
founded for committing crime: up to 3 years (if committed by the means
of media, to be increased one-half).
Article 285 - Spreading confidential information on a legal
investigation: up to up to 3 years (if committed by the means of media,
to be increased one-half).
Article 300 (new form of Article 158) - Insulting the President of the
Republic: up to 4 years (if committed by the means of media, to be
increased one-third).
Article 301 (new form of Article 145) - Insult to the Turkish flag or
to anything having the Turkish State's symbol (crescent and star): up
to 3 years (if committed by a Turkish citizen abroad: to be increased
one-third); Insult to the Turkish national anthem: up to 2 years (if
committed by a Turkish citizen abroad: to be increased one-third).
Article 302 (new form of Article 159) - Insulting the Turkish national
identity, the Republic or the Grand National Assembly of Turkey: up to
3 years (if committed by a Turkish citizen abroad: to be increased
one-third); Insulting the Turkish Government, the judicial organs,
military or security institutions: up to 2 years (if committed by a
Turkish citizen abroad: to be increased one-third).
> Now, let's get back to Djadjik. I can assure you that this word has
been in
> the Turkish language for a heck of a long time. Indians are not known
for
> their fondness of cheeses or yoghourt. It is obvious that they were
> introduced to Yoghourt by their Mogul Rulers as the Turkic dynasty
that set
> up an empire in India was known. In fact, when I was very young I
thought
> this was something of an exaggeration but if you study the subject or
even
> read the National Geographic Magazine you will soon come to accept
that the
> so-called Mogul Rulers of India were in fact Turkic. I am not now
going to
> claim this as a scientific proof of the fact that the Mogul Rulers
were
> Turkic but I even saw an Indian film where the last of the Moguls who
was
> exiled to Burma by the British was depicted speaking Turkish on home.
These
> rulers of India were quite cultivated and encouraged the arts with
the
> result that some of the finest exponents of Indian music are in fact
Moslem
> Indians.
>
> >
> >>And how on earth can Greeks claim that Dolma (or Dolmades as you
> > Greekified
> >>the name) is a Greek dish when the Turkish word suggests it is
> > something
> >>stuffed?
> > I don't know, but based on ingredients and from what I've seen in
> > Central Asia, I can't believe it's mongolian. No doubt today's
Turks
> > make it, but where they got it from is another story.
>
> But can't you see that Dolma is a Turkish word the root word being
Dol
> meaning Fill, Doldur meaning Fill (it), and Dolma meaning something
that is
> stuffed. What you probably do not know is that in Turkish there is
also
> Sarma which is reserved for Dolma that is stuffed by wrapping in
leaves as
> opposed to say stuffed peppers, aubergines that are strictly filled
by being
> filled/stuffed hence they are more correctly known as Dolmas.
Actually Sarma
> is used to differentiate the variety of Dolma that is wrapped in
leaves.
> Even the existence of different words for different types of Dolma is
an
> indication that Turkish is the source word for the Greek Dolmades
where the
> ending -des is the pluralized version of Dolma in Greek.. Dolma
(singular)
> Dolmades (plural in Greek). In the Turkish language the plural is
reserved
> for use only in essential cases. The pluralized noun is not normally
used.
> Neither do we have a female gender -- Door H Porta (very appropriate
as it
> opens up invitingly -- LOL), or a female Chair (H Karekla) on which
one
> its -- not very appropriate :-( -- or To Tragedy (sexless
neutral
> gender even for the most sexy Song) and O Anthropos (the obviously
masculine
> Man).
>
> And just to show you that I am no bigot in making these claims that
are
> based on sound judgment and reasoning in addition to historical
facts, let
> me add that the words Palates and Donates in Turkish are directly
borrowed
> from the Greek. What a lot of Greeks don't realize is that there is a
clear
> distinction between the soft and hard consonants BE and UP and DO and
TO in
> Turkish which is not so distinctive in Greek. There, I hope this
keeps you
> happy.
>
> In some respects the use of the pluralized noun in Turkish is akin to
the
> use of the word Fish in English. No matter how many Mackerel you
catch you
> say we caught a lot of Mackerel today. Or Can I have two Mackerel
please?
> But you talk of Fishes and Mackerels when you talk of DIFFERENT types
of
> Fish or different types of Mackerel. Yes, there are different types
of
> Mackerel some types having a more pointed nose which are actually far
> tastier than the ordinary mackerel.
>
>
> >
> > For example, Turkish coffee is known as Turkish coffee thoughout
the
> > middle east. Even a sizable number of Greeks will order a "tourkiko
> > kafe" (Happy now?). We do know though that Turks got it from the
> > Ethiopians
>
> I never claimed Turks invented or first developed coffee. We know
that
> coffee was first known in Ethiopia OR Yemen. In fact I can tell you
that the
> preparation of the coffee beans for Arabic and Turkish coffee is
quite
> probably the same. However, it is in the brewing of the coffee that
Turkish
> coffee is different. Hence Turkish Coffee. Probably also because
Europeans
> first found out about coffee from the Turks. So-called Greek Coffee
is
> nothing but Turkish Coffee in all its aspects. i.e. there is nothing
> different about so-called Greek Coffee from Turkish Coffee.
>
>
> >
> >>And considering the fact that Central Asia was and still is the
> > heartland of
> >>Turkic peoples, that might be an indication to the Turkic origins
of
> > Greeks.
> >>How about that?! I leave you to mull this point over.
> > That's funny. It's well known that every nationality thinks they
are
> > the best, but I did not know Turks believed they are the
originators of
> > mankind. Many people have tried to claim the Greeks, the ancient
ones
> > in particular. Someone here even suggested that Ancient Greeks used
to
> > be nordic, an idiotic theory that racist theorists promote to
support
> > their agendas. No explanation is given just that the Greek and
Roman
> > civilizations were Aryan (Nordic), and not Mediterranean.
>
> I fully agree with you in this respect. But it might be interesting
for you
> to study old historic migrations for you will find that Greeks moved
to
> present day Greece in mass migrations from Central Asia -- in other
words
> more or less from the same geography as Turkic peoples. True we
extended
> further east even and even mixed with the Mongols and the Chinese at
one
> stage.
>
> > Based on DNA alone, Turkey only consists of 20% Turanids (original
> > Turks) and 25% Irano-Afghans (Kurds). The rest are Dinarised
> > Meditteraneans or Mediterraneans originating from Greek colonists.
> > Could explain this urge to be European at any measure ;-)
> > Greece has 65% Aegean (Minoans, Aecheans), 20% Apine (Dorians), 10%
> > Dinaric (related to Dorians) and 5% nordic.
>
> I do not know where you got these figures but I have no wish to
contest your
> figures. I know that we Turks mixed with a lot of other peoples,
assimilated
> them, became assimilated ourselves throughout history. I see nothing
wrong
> with admitting this. In fact I am proud of it. My approach to all
such
> matters is purely humanistic. We are all humans and we are all
brothers. If
> you ask me this is a strength rather than a weakness.
>
> But then the ancient Greeks were the same. They assimilated the
peoples of
> lands they conquered. But please spare me the ridiculous notion that
you set
> up colonies without wars. In fact in a recent BBC documentary I saw,
I
> learned that the ancient Greeks would prohibit the peoples of
conquered
> lands from keeping such animals as cattle so that they would be
deprived of
> their livelihood and end up having to work for their Greeks
colonialists who
> engaged mainly in and made their fortunes through commerce. In other
words,
> you set up the rules of latter day European colonialists but unlike
the
> European colonialists you assimilated the native population and
eventually
> you turned them into Greeks. Wise foreign policy, I'd say unlike the
latter
> day European's colonial policy of keeping themselves to themselves
and
> making sure that the natives knew their place. Of course this policy
only
> works when things are done at the slow pace of those ancient days
giving
> everybody the chance to adjust.
>
> >
> >>I leave you to mull this point over.
> > ;-)
>
> Nice remark.
> ;-) from me too.
>
> >
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