markrivers wrote:

>
> choro-nik wrote:
> > "karapanomanolokopoulos" > wrote in
> > message
> > oups.com...
> > > > I have come across Greeks claiming that tzatziki (djacjik in
> Turkish
> > > written
> > > > cacik) is a Greek dish even when you have borrowed the name
> directly
> > > from
> > > > Turkish and Greekefied it using Tz for the Turkish dj sound
> > > (represented by
> > > > the letter c in the Turkish alphabet) when you don't even have
> > > > that
> > > sound in
> > > > the Greek alphabet.
> > > Name cannot say all about the origins, plus the modern Turkish
> language
> > > is a result of linguistic engineering.
> >
> > I doubt that you understand the "linguistic engineering" of the
> Turkish
> > language. What was done was to change the old Ottoman script to the
> Latin
> > alphabet. Besides that not much was changed apart from some words
> that had
> > crept into the language from Persian and Arabic the roots of which
> were not
> > immediately understood by the population at large. These words were
> replaced
> > by words derived from original Turkish roots. One good example is
> Muallim
> > (teacher) which was derived Ilim (knowledge) and Alim (someone of
> great
> > knowledge) and to Muallim (someone who teaches knowledge). Ogrenme
> was a
> > root Turkish word meaning to learn known by all and sundry from the
> highest
> > court official in the Ottoman Empire to the lowliest peasant. From
> Ogren
> > (learn) and Ogret (teach) Ogretmen was developed to mean somebody
> > who teaches, i.e. a teacher. So Muallim became Ogretmen. Student
> > became
> Orgenci
> > which means learner i.e. student instead of the old Talebe the root
> word
> > for which is lost to the average Turk. Elbise became Giysi from
> Giy/mek
> > meaning to wear. Giy means Wear. The -mek suffix changes Wear to To
> Wear. So
> > you see Giy (Wear - verb) to Giysi (something that is worn). Nothing
> > sensational here. Oku means Read, Okumak is To Read. Okul became a
> School
> > instead of the older Mektep. But actually, over 90 percent of the
> language
> > did not change at all. I hope my examples explain what you call
> "linguistic
> > engineering" which was far lesser in its scope than you seem to
> imagine.
> > Article 215 - Praising a committed crime or a person who committed
> this
> crime: up to 2 years (if committed by the means of media, to be
> increased one-half).
>
>
> Article 216 (new form of Article 312) - Instigating a part of the
> people having different social class, race, religion, sect or region
> to
>
> hatred or hostility against another part of the people in a way
> dangerous for the public security: up to 3 years (if committed by the
> means of media, to be increased one-half).
>
>
> Article 220/8 (new form of Article 169) - Propaganda of an
> organization
>
> founded for committing crime: up to 3 years (if committed by the means
> of media, to be increased one-half).
>
>
> Article 285 - Spreading confidential information on a legal
> investigation: up to up to 3 years (if committed by the means of
> media,
>
> to be increased one-half).
>
>
> Article 300 (new form of Article 158) - Insulting the President of the
> Republic: up to 4 years (if committed by the means of media, to be
> increased one-third).
>
>
> Article 301 (new form of Article 145) - Insult to the Turkish flag or
> to anything having the Turkish State's symbol (crescent and star): up
> to 3 years (if committed by a Turkish citizen abroad: to be increased
> one-third); Insult to the Turkish national anthem: up to 2 years (if
> committed by a Turkish citizen abroad: to be increased one-third).
>
>
> Article 302 (new form of Article 159) - Insulting the Turkish
> national
>
> identity, the Republic or the Grand National Assembly of Turkey: up to
> 3 years (if committed by a Turkish citizen abroad: to be increased
> one-third); Insulting the Turkish Government, the judicial organs,
> military or security institutions: up to 2 years (if committed by a
> Turkish citizen abroad: to be increased one-third).
>
>
>
> > Or if you are aware of the English legalese and the movement towards
> plain
> > English in contracts and other such documents, you will better
> understand
> > the scope of the changes in the Turkish language in the 20th
> > century.
> It
> > certainly did not become a language that people could not understand
> but
> > rather the reverse in that everybody could understand the written
> > and
> spoken
> > word without having to study long years to learn the foreign root
> words and
> > how other words were developed from those foreign root words .
> > Article 215 - Praising a committed crime or a person who committed
> this
> crime: up to 2 years (if committed by the means of media, to be
> increased one-half).
>
>
> Article 216 (new form of Article 312) - Instigating a part of the
> people having different social class, race, religion, sect or region
> to
>
> hatred or hostility against another part of the people in a way
> dangerous for the public security: up to 3 years (if committed by the
> means of media, to be increased one-half).
>
>
> Article 220/8 (new form of Article 169) - Propaganda of an
> organization
>
> founded for committing crime: up to 3 years (if committed by the means
> of media, to be increased one-half).
>
>
> Article 285 - Spreading confidential information on a legal
> investigation: up to up to 3 years (if committed by the means of
> media,
>
> to be increased one-half).
>
>
> Article 300 (new form of Article 158) - Insulting the President of the
> Republic: up to 4 years (if committed by the means of media, to be
> increased one-third).
>
>
> Article 301 (new form of Article 145) - Insult to the Turkish flag or
> to anything having the Turkish State's symbol (crescent and star): up
> to 3 years (if committed by a Turkish citizen abroad: to be increased
> one-third); Insult to the Turkish national anthem: up to 2 years (if
> committed by a Turkish citizen abroad: to be increased one-third).
>
>
> Article 302 (new form of Article 159) - Insulting the Turkish
> national
>
> identity, the Republic or the Grand National Assembly of Turkey: up to
> 3 years (if committed by a Turkish citizen abroad: to be increased
> one-third); Insulting the Turkish Government, the judicial organs,
> military or security institutions: up to 2 years (if committed by a
> Turkish citizen abroad: to be increased one-third).
>
>
>
> > Mongols do various yoghurt
> > > sauces, but none of it is close to tzatziki. The closest I've seen
> it
> > > outside Greece and the middle east is India, though their version
> is a
> > > lot thinner. I think they even add liquid to the yoghurt and blend
> it.
> > > Frankly, I don't know what its origin is, but if it is mongolian,
> it's
> > > a heavily modified version of anything in existence in Central
> Asia.
> > > Those are much more heavily seasoned and both texture and taste is
> > > different.
> > Article 215 - Praising a committed crime or a person who committed
> this
> crime: up to 2 years (if committed by the means of media, to be
> increased one-half).
>
>
> Article 216 (new form of Article 312) - Instigating a part of the
> people having different social class, race, religion, sect or region
> to
>
> hatred or hostility against another part of the people in a way
> dangerous for the public security: up to 3 years (if committed by the
> means of media, to be increased one-half).
>
>
> Article 220/8 (new form of Article 169) - Propaganda of an
> organization
>
> founded for committing crime: up to 3 years (if committed by the means
> of media, to be increased one-half).
>
>
> Article 285 - Spreading confidential information on a legal
> investigation: up to up to 3 years (if committed by the means of
> media,
>
> to be increased one-half).
>
>
> Article 300 (new form of Article 158) - Insulting the President of the
> Republic: up to 4 years (if committed by the means of media, to be
> increased one-third).
>
>
> Article 301 (new form of Article 145) - Insult to the Turkish flag or
> to anything having the Turkish State's symbol (crescent and star): up
> to 3 years (if committed by a Turkish citizen abroad: to be increased
> one-third); Insult to the Turkish national anthem: up to 2 years (if
> committed by a Turkish citizen abroad: to be increased one-third).
>
>
> Article 302 (new form of Article 159) - Insulting the Turkish
> national
>
> identity, the Republic or the Grand National Assembly of Turkey: up to
> 3 years (if committed by a Turkish citizen abroad: to be increased
> one-third); Insulting the Turkish Government, the judicial organs,
> military or security institutions: up to 2 years (if committed by a
> Turkish citizen abroad: to be increased one-third).
>
>
>
> > Look, English ales are not all the same but they are all ales of one
> sort or
> > another. To the English Ale enthusiast the minutest differences are
> > extremely important. To me they are all similar, rather flat and not
> to my
> > taste. I prefer Lagers and Pilsners though I must admit I have had
> some
> > lovely beers that strictly fall into the Ale category.
> >
> > Same with Djadjik. If you don't mind I will write in as it would
> > have
> to be
> > written in English so those others following our conversation can
> pronounce
> > it properly. I know that the Indian Raita is the Indian Djadjik.
> However,
> > don't forget the Mogul rule of India. Those Moguls who ruled India
> were
> > acArticle 215 - Praising a committed crime or a person who committed
> this
> crime: up to 2 years (if committed by the means of media, to be
> increased one-half).
>
>
> Article 216 (new form of Article 312) - Instigating a part of the
> people having different social class, race, religion, sect or region
> to
>
> hatred or hostility against another part of the people in a way
> dangerous for the public security: up to 3 years (if committed by the
> means of media, to be increased one-half).
>
>
> Article 220/8 (new form of Article 169) - Propaganda of an
> organization
>
> founded for committing crime: up to 3 years (if committed by the means
> of media, to be increased one-half).
>
>
> Article 285 - Spreading confidential information on a legal
> investigation: up to up to 3 years (if committed by the means of
> media,
>
> to be increased one-half).
>
>
> Article 300 (new form of Article 158) - Insulting the President of the
> Republic: up to 4 years (if committed by the means of media, to be
> increased one-third).
>
>
> Article 301 (new form of Article 145) - Insult to the Turkish flag or
> to anything having the Turkish State's symbol (crescent and star): up
> to 3 years (if committed by a Turkish citizen abroad: to be increased
> one-third); Insult to the Turkish national anthem: up to 2 years (if
> committed by a Turkish citizen abroad: to be increased one-third).
>
>
> Article 302 (new form of Article 159) - Insulting the Turkish
> national
>
> identity, the Republic or the Grand National Assembly of Turkey: up to
> 3 years (if committed by a Turkish citizen abroad: to be increased
> one-third); Insulting the Turkish Government, the judicial organs,
> military or security institutions: up to 2 years (if committed by a
> Turkish citizen abroad: to be increased one-third).
>
>
> tually Turks or Turkic. They spoke Turkish or rather a Turkic dialect
> and
> > introduced their customs, cuisine etc to India. In the end they were
> > assimilated by India but that is another story. And for your
> information
> > King Farouk of Egypt grew up in a household where Turkish was the
> everyday
> > language spoken. In fact King Farouk's father visited Cyprus in the
> 30s and
> > my father was assigned to be his guide during his visit and they
> spoke in
> > Turkish even though both knew English. According to my father they
> engaged
> > in long personal conversations on the ex-King's yacht which was
> actually a
> > large steamer. Turkish was the ex-King's "mother tongue". King
> > Farouk
> was
> > the first of that line of kings who spoke French at home no doubt
> > due
> to his
> > education. Up to the time of his father who was ousted by the
> British at
> > the time, Turkish was the language spoken in the palaces of the
> Egyptian
> > Royal household. I am sure that that family have also been
> assimilated into
> > the Egyptian society -- apart from those who left Egypt, of course.
> >
> > During his visit the unruly ex-King who was ousted by the British in
> favor
> > or his son Farouk, the spoilt brat, was also invited to a dinner
> > laid
> in his
> > honor by the Kykko Monastery. When everybody was seated they were
> > all waiting for the King to start eating but he kept sitting still
> > and
> after a
> > while the Abbot leaned toward him to tell him that everybody was
> waiting for
> > him to start whereupon the ex-King asked but where is Mr So-and-So?
> > I
> can't
> > start eating without him being with us, whereupon the abbot quickly
> sent
> > somebody to fetch my brother from the other dining hall for the run
> of the
> > mill monks to the dining hall of the hierarchs. Sometimes, I feel
> that I
> > should have got my father to talk into a Walkman to relate his
> memoirs. And
> > he certainly knew a lot of people and a lot of things that would
> > have
> made
> > quite an interesting book of memoirs. But there, how many of us ever
> get
> > round to doing the important things in life as we sp through with
> life?
> >
> > Sorry, I know I am going a bit at a tangent, a bit off the main
> > topic
> but
> > hopefully what I have written will show to you that the use of the
> Turkish
> > language is more widespread in the world that you probably are aware
> of.
> > Many Cypriots may also find the glaring differences between the
> father and
> > the French speaking playboy King Farouk proved himself to be. Many
> Cypriots
> > of the older generation will remember Farouk's visits to the
> > gambling
> dens
> > in Cyprus and his degenerate life style as opposed to his serious
> > gentlemanly father's life style.
> > Article 215 - Praising a committed crime or a person who committed
> this
> crime: up to 2 years (if committed by the means of media, to be
> increased one-half).
>
>
> Article 216 (new form of Article 312) - Instigating a part of the
> people having different social class, race, religion, sect or region
> to
>
> hatred or hostility against another part of the people in a way
> dangerous for the public security: up to 3 years (if committed by the
> means of media, to be increased one-half).
>
>
> Article 220/8 (new form of Article 169) - Propaganda of an
> organization
>
> founded for committing crime: up to 3 years (if committed by the means
> of media, to be increased one-half).
>
>
> Article 285 - Spreading confidential information on a legal
> investigation: up to up to 3 years (if committed by the means of
> media,
>
> to be increased one-half).
>
>
> Article 300 (new form of Article 158) - Insulting the President of the
> Republic: up to 4 years (if committed by the means of media, to be
> increased one-third).
>
>
> Article 301 (new form of Article 145) - Insult to the Turkish flag or
> to anything having the Turkish State's symbol (crescent and star): up
> to 3 years (if committed by a Turkish citizen abroad: to be increased
> one-third); Insult to the Turkish national anthem: up to 2 years (if
> committed by a Turkish citizen abroad: to be increased one-third).
>
>
> Article 302 (new form of Article 159) - Insulting the Turkish
> national
>
> identity, the Republic or the Grand National Assembly of Turkey: up to
> 3 years (if committed by a Turkish citizen abroad: to be increased
> one-third); Insulting the Turkish Government, the judicial organs,
> military or security institutions: up to 2 years (if committed by a
> Turkish citizen abroad: to be increased one-third).
>
>
>
> > Now, let's get back to Djadjik. I can assure you that this word has
> been in
> > the Turkish language for a heck of a long time. Indians are not
> > known
> for
> > their fondness of cheeses or yoghourt. It is obvious that they were
> > introduced to Yoghourt by their Mogul Rulers as the Turkic dynasty
> that set
> > up an empire in India was known. In fact, when I was very young I
> thought
> > this was something of an exaggeration but if you study the subject
> > or
> even
> > read the National Geographic Magazine you will soon come to accept
> that the
> > so-called Mogul Rulers of India were in fact Turkic. I am not now
> going to
> > claim this as a scientific proof of the fact that the Mogul Rulers
> were
> > Turkic but I even saw an Indian film where the last of the Moguls
> > who
> was
> > exiled to Burma by the British was depicted speaking Turkish on
> > home.
> These
> > rulers of India were quite cultivated and encouraged the arts with
> the
> > result that some of the finest exponents of Indian music are in fact
> Moslem
> > Indians.
> >
> > >
> > > > And how on earth can Greeks claim that Dolma (or Dolmades as you
> > > Greekified
> > > > the name) is a Greek dish when the Turkish word suggests it is
> > > something
> > > > stuffed?
> > > I don't know, but based on ingredients and from what I've seen in
> > > Central Asia, I can't believe it's mongolian. No doubt today's
> Turks
> > > make it, but where they got it from is another story.
> >
> > But can't you see that Dolma is a Turkish word the root word being
> Dol
> > meaning Fill, Doldur meaning Fill (it), and Dolma meaning something
> that is
> > stuffed. What you probably do not know is that in Turkish there is
> also
> > Sarma which is reserved for Dolma that is stuffed by wrapping in
> leaves as
> > opposed to say stuffed peppers, aubergines that are strictly filled
> by being
> > filled/stuffed hence they are more correctly known as Dolmas.
> Actually Sarma
> > is used to differentiate the variety of Dolma that is wrapped in
> leaves.
> > Even the existence of different words for different types of Dolma
> > is
> an
> > indication that Turkish is the source word for the Greek Dolmades
> where the
> > ending -des is the pluralized version of Dolma in Greek.. Dolma
> (singular)
> > Dolmades (plural in Greek). In the Turkish language the plural is
> reserved
> > for use only in essential cases. The pluralized noun is not normally
> used.
> > Neither do we have a female gender -- Door H Porta (very appropriate
> as it
> > opens up invitingly -- LOL), or a female Chair (H Karekla) on which
> one
> > its -- not very appropriate :-( -- or To Tragedy (sexless
> neutral
> > gender even for the most sexy Song) and O Anthropos (the obviously
> masculine
> > Man).
> >
> > And just to show you that I am no bigot in making these claims that
> are
> > based on sound judgment and reasoning in addition to historical
> facts, let
> > me add that the words Palates and Donates in Turkish are directly
> borrowed
> > from the Greek. What a lot of Greeks don't realize is that there is
> > a
> clear
> > distinction between the soft and hard consonants BE and UP and DO
> > and
> TO in
> > Turkish which is not so distinctive in Greek. There, I hope this
> keeps you
> > happy.
> >
> > In some respects the use of the pluralized noun in Turkish is akin
> > to
> the
> > use of the word Fish in English. No matter how many Mackerel you
> catch you
> > say we caught a lot of Mackerel today. Or Can I have two Mackerel
> please?
> > But you talk of Fishes and Mackerels when you talk of DIFFERENT
> > types
> of
> > Fish or different types of Mackerel. Yes, there are different types
> of
> > Mackerel some types having a more pointed nose which are actually
> > far tastier than the ordinary mackerel.
> >
> >
> > >
> > > For example, Turkish coffee is known as Turkish coffee thoughout
> the
> > > middle east. Even a sizable number of Greeks will order a
> > > "tourkiko kafe" (Happy now?). We do know though that Turks got it
> > > from the Ethiopians
> >
> > I never claimed Turks invented or first developed coffee. We know
> that
> > coffee was first known in Ethiopia OR Yemen. In fact I can tell you
> that the
> > preparation of the coffee beans for Arabic and Turkish coffee is
> quite
> > probably the same. However, it is in the brewing of the coffee that
> Turkish
> > coffee is different. Hence Turkish Coffee. Probably also because
> Europeans
> > first found out about coffee from the Turks. So-called Greek Coffee
> is
> > nothing but Turkish Coffee in all its aspects. i.e. there is nothing
> > different about so-called Greek Coffee from Turkish Coffee.
> >
> >
> > >
> > > > And considering the fact that Central Asia was and still is the
> > > heartland of
> > > > Turkic peoples, that might be an indication to the Turkic
> > > > origins
> of
> > > Greeks.
> > > > How about that?! I leave you to mull this point over.
> > > That's funny. It's well known that every nationality thinks they
> are
> > > the best, but I did not know Turks believed they are the
> originators of
> > > mankind. Many people have tried to claim the Greeks, the ancient
> ones
> > > in particular. Someone here even suggested that Ancient Greeks
> > > used
> to
> > > be nordic, an idiotic theory that racist theorists promote to
> support
> > > their agendas. No explanation is given just that the Greek and
> Roman
> > > civilizations were Aryan (Nordic), and not Mediterranean.
> >
> > I fully agree with you in this respect. But it might be interesting
> for you
> > to study old historic migrations for you will find that Greeks moved
> to
> > present day Greece in mass migrations from Central Asia -- in other
> words
> > more or less from the same geography as Turkic peoples. True we
> extended
> > further east even and even mixed with the Mongols and the Chinese at
> one
> > stage.
> >
> > > Based on DNA alone, Turkey only consists of 20% Turanids (original
> > > Turks) and 25% Irano-Afghans (Kurds). The rest are Dinarised
> > > Meditteraneans or Mediterraneans originating from Greek colonists.
> > > Could explain this urge to be European at any measure ;-)
> > > Greece has 65% Aegean (Minoans, Aecheans), 20% Apine (Dorians),
> > > 10% Dinaric (related to Dorians) and 5% nordic.
> >
> > I do not know where you got these figures but I have no wish to
> contest your
> > figures. I know that we Turks mixed with a lot of other peoples,
> assimilated
> > them, became assimilated ourselves throughout history. I see nothing
> wrong
> > with admitting this. In fact I am proud of it. My approach to all
> such
> > matters is purely humanistic. We are all humans and we are all
> brothers. If
> > you ask me this is a strength rather than a weakness.
> >
> > But then the ancient Greeks were the same. They assimilated the
> peoples of
> > lands they conquered. But please spare me the ridiculous notion that
> you set
> > up colonies without wars. In fact in a recent BBC documentary I saw,
> I
> > learned that the ancient Greeks would prohibit the peoples of
> conquered
> > lands from keeping such animals as cattle so that they would be
> deprived of
> > their livelihood and end up having to work for their Greeks
> colonialists who
> > engaged mainly in and made their fortunes through commerce. In other
> words,
> > you set up the rules of latter day European colonialists but unlike
> the
> > European colonialists you assimilated the native population and
> eventually
> > you turned them into Greeks. Wise foreign policy, I'd say unlike the
> latter
> > day European's colonial policy of keeping themselves to themselves
> and
> > making sure that the natives knew their place. Of course this policy
> only
> > works when things are done at the slow pace of those ancient days
> giving
> > everybody the chance to adjust.
> >
> > >
> > > > I leave you to mull this point over.
> > > ;-)
> >
> > Nice remark.
> > ;-) from me too.
> >
> > >

How many mark rivers are there?

--
Sean O'Kilfoyle is just another stupid Turk!!!.
Mark Rivers is just as stupid, and AttilaAtaman
is their common male lover!!!!!!!!!!