"Mike Avery" > wrote in message > >
> >
> >
> Dick tersely hit the highlights for you. I've made similar breads, both
> yeasted and sourdough.
>
> Too high a hydration with too poor gluten development would be the first
> two culprits. I'd look into reducing the hydration somewhat. I'd also
> look into kneading a bit longer and perhaps doing some "stretch and
> folds" before forming the loaves.
>
> The next culprit would be too long a rise. The bread looks like it
> reached a peak and then collapsed.
>
> One of the gotchas's about baking is there is a point where the dough
> has to go into the oven. It's the baker's task to make sure the oven is
> ready, that the baker is ready, and at the golden moment, the baker
> gently slides the dough into the oven. If the dough isn't baked, it
> will continue to rise. And if it rises too far, it will collapse.
> Either before, when, or after it is put into the oven.
>
> The higher the hydration in a dough or starter, the more quickly things
> happen. A somewhat dryer dough will hold it's peak rise somewhat longer
> than a wetter dough. All of this has to also be seen in the overall
> context of Beatrice Ojakangas' comment that dough would rather be a bit
> too wet than a bit too dry. However, when you get past a bit in either
> direction, you are asking for trouble.
>
> Mike
>
With my freeform baking, I had been using more stretch and folds, the very
wet dough gaining firmness with each step. By the time it was divided and
shaped and formed it was pretty stable and keeping its shape. I really
didn't know what was necessary with baking in a pan, I kind of thought all
the steps were to help keep the boule from spreading and turning into a
pancake like my first 10 or 20 loaves. So I didn't spend so much time
preparing the dough.

Also I have never spent all that much time kneading the wet stick dough, I
have been using the knead technique I got from that artisan bread DVD, where
you pick up the wet dough, let it stretch and fall back onto the counter
while still holding some in your hand, fold it over, turn it, pick it up
again, and so on for about 5 minutes until it gets a smooth outer surface,
then let it rise a bit before doing stretch and folds. This has worked fine
for me until now, but in the hindsight suddenly apparent in writing this
down, this probably should have been modified somehow if I wasn't going to
do all the stretch and folds.

If I do all the stretch and folds and form and shape the dough better, it
will of coarse be firmer when I put it in the pans, so in that case do you
still suggest a dryer dough?

hutchndi