Hi (Another) Dan!

> I'm not down under, that website is just the first match I got on a google
> search of "sourdough forum". I'm in the US cornbelt. You can tell by my
> "location" on the site.

Well, cornbelt is excellent! I went to college and grad school in
Indiana. Hop on your bike at the college and in 3 minutes you're
sailing along the pike with corn as far as the eye can see.

You'll have to instruct me maybe off list (off topic) how to tell your
location on the site. I started using rec groups years ago but then
dropped off and am now used to yahoo groups. I'm dyslexic and find the
layout of rec groups visually very hard to read, but this is such a
good group I do try my best to untangle the tangled words I see <g>.


> I think knowing the hows and whys actually helps you to be creative or
> react to changes that arise, without having to slavishly pore through
> cookbooks that might not have the answer anyway. So I think it's possible
> to do both.

Couldn't agree more. If you could see my Wing & Scott, and Reinhart,
and others you'd see all the yellow highlights and notes in the
margins. Have you read _On Food and Cooking_, by Harold McGee, recently
revised? He's great fun and fascination, too.

> Here's the recipe:
>
> 1 package dry yeast
> 2 1/2 c warm water (105-115F)
> 2T honey
> 2 1/2 c bread or all-purpose flour

> Bernard Clayton's "New Complete Book of Bread" (30th ann. ed.).

Well I guess he's done something right for 29 years. This one sounds
like a bomb to me too with all that content and so little space.

So, most sourdough folks will say if you use commercial yeast you're
not making a sourdough starter. Somewhere in my readings, from them
that do work in labs, was said that over time the natural yeast and
bacteria muscle out the commercial yeast anyway. (Oh maybe it's the
Ganzle interview in Wing & Scott.) There are many methods for making a
starter which contains no commercial yeast. Some of them use a lot of
flour to get to fruition.

> p58(ch3, "Obtaining or Creating a Natural Leaven").
> He uses 1:1 rye:wheat throughout, and doesn't say what kind to
> use after that (ch1, "Breadmaking: How I Make Bread", p5-7).

You're on to one there. Day three they seem to say use unbleached or
whole wheat. All this stuff about tossing out half of it... just bake
something with it... well, compost ok, but why not bake? (I know you
want to make your own, and I've made my own several times over the
years and enjoyed doing so. Again, you can also get some for free from
some folks here, including me.)


> > if you've got a bad hard drive toss it, brother.
> The original toxic batch is now compost.

Here, here! Onward and upward.


> > Whether or how not bleaching flour affects where
> > your starter goes use unbleached, ok? <g>.
> The cheapest unbleached anything around here is about 35c/lb.
> Bleached white is available for as little as 18c/lb.
> I'm not really a natural-foods buff, so I only care about bleach
> if (and at whichever stage(s)) it really makes a significant difference.

Well, I tried my best, LOL.

One way to find out is to bake with both at some point. I think I pay
about 35c/lb in bulk for unbleached bread flour, and about 60c/lb for
organic bread. If you start really getting busy you might end up buying
in bulk mail order as some folks do. I do like King Arthur and use it
sometimes as well. I get it at Trader Joes. Don't know if TJs has
arrived in your neck of the woods yet, or check here
http://www.kingarthurflour.com/flour/where.php For getting used to the
whole process it sure makes sense to watch the cents, but don't give up
on the idea of trying other flours to see what, if any, difference you
notice. (I apparently haven't given up. I'll shut up about it. LOL )

Someone on one of the lists said he/she uses the cheapest stuff they
can find for maintaining their starter and I liked that idea, tho I
don't use much for just maintaining anyway. I keep very small amounts
of starter now.

> It's been 80F/27C around here, and all of the new starters
> have been bubbling their brains out after a couple days.
> The only problem is I may be infecting the new ones with
> old microbes through the jars, spoons, etc.

It seems to me my various starters remain as distinct as they ever
were. I wash my hands pretty well (I tend to use my hands to mix the
starter and water together) and wash the bowl and the whisk but
certainly there must be stuff floating around etc. If anything is
changing mine it would be my lack of precision in hydration or other
factors that might favor the bacteria over the yeast or visa versa. I
do think it's good to really clean your container when you refresh the
starter so you are putting your refreshed starter back into a nice
clean container. Some people might speak up for the value of not doing
so and leaving old starter dried up on the sides. (Another storage
method is a very dry starter surrounded by flour.)


> > _Bread Baker's Apprentice_, Peter Reinhart
> Thanks for the ref.

See what you think. I love the book. He's a delight to "travel" with
on his adventures and, to me, very clear in his presentation.


> >> b) differences between flour types
> > Off the top of my head when you have whole grains doing a "soaker" can
> > make the difference between lousy and lovely.
> ? I'm not familiar with that.

It's another kind of pre-ferment. And maybe, hopefully, someone will
jump in and be more accurate than I am. Instead of having yeast as a
poolish or biga would, it's just a portion of the whole grain component
and the water, that soaks usually "overnight". Whole grains can take
higher hydrations if given the chance and the soaker gives it the
chance.

> >> sources ... don't always agree with each other
> > They don't agree? <g>
> >Oh, isn't that the fun part?
> No Marylouise, it is not. I can tell you're taunting me
> mercilessly because I'm such a newbie, aren't you, 007?

I hope that's a warm wink. No taunting intended. Email can so easily be
misunderstood; I hope mine wasn't. I don't like unkindness on line so I
hope my message came across as warm and inviting as I wished it to be.

I've found that the sources whether published in hard cover or found
online or spoken out loud frequently do have different opinions. I
prefer to throw up my hands and chuckle with the contradictions. It
seems like people from various camps all end up making great bread.
Explore them all. I learn from everyone.

I'm a long time baker, but in no way a pro at sourdough. In fact I
stopped baking bread all together for several years and only in the
past 6 months or so have started up again, and with sourdough have only
been making focaccia at present. Hopefully you'll get more feedback
from them who are doing sourdough bread steadily. I just jumped in with
the hopes of encouraging you as others have been encouraging me.

As for 007, I was a teen when the only real James Bond was on the big
screen, LOL. It's a wave of affection to him, tho folks say he's a jerk
in real life, sigh. I already had a faulty memory when I set up that
yahoo account many years ago so thought it would be something I would
never forget. And indeed have found that all my friends have had no
trouble remembering the address.

Here's hoping some of the many more skilled on the list will come to
your aid.
Enjoy! -Marylouise