Randall Nortman wrote:
> My usual process for mixing wheat doughs is to mix briefly just to wet
> all the flour, then let it sit 30 minutes to hydrate ("autolyse"),
> then knead about 5-10 minutes (in a KA mixer) until it's smooth and
> elastic. (This replaced my old method of mixing for 15 minutes
> straight with no autolyse; I find that the autolyse method gives the
> same gluten development with much less mixing.)
>
> My last attempt at a dough with any substantial portion of rye flour
> resulted in a grainy, sticky, gummy mess. This was before I started
> including the autolyse phase. I've just been reading through the rye
> sections of various books and I've seen some conflicting advice,
> though the unanimous opinion is that rye can't handle much mixing.

It's probably also that much kneading is not necessary with rye, it has
no beneficial effect.

> One questionable thing I read is that the pentosan gums in rye will
> tend to "gobble up" the water before the gluten has a chance to
> hydrate, resulting in poor gluten quality. That author recommended
> initial mixing with only 2/3 of the water to make a stiff dough, then
> an autolyse, then mixing to a smooth ball. Then the remaining water
> is added a little bit at a time, kneading after each addition until
> the dough is smooth. I'm afraid I don't see the logic in this method;
> why not add all the water at once? How does this help the gluten get
> more of the water than the gums? Any thoughts?

Where was that? Could you quote the reference please. If it was Laurel's
Kitchen Bread Book, it would be a good opportunity to start a discussion
about the usefulness of information in this book under the aspect of
sourdough. As far as I remember, they did not give any sources either.

> I'd be interested in hearing other advice on handling mixed
> whole-grain wheat/rye doughs, with anywhere from 10%-50% rye.

Use water - dip your hands in (I think cold works better) water before
approaching the rye dough/loafs.

At one point, a fellow posted his rye procedure, he was using rubber
gloves. I don't find this to be necessary.

> Also,
> opinions on the right hydration would be appreciated; my standard for
> 100% whole wheat is 67-70%. Rye ought to be able to absorb more, in
> theory, but then my (limited) experience says that it will be very
> sticky, so I would tend to want to make it drier.

Rye is sticky, there is no way around and hydration is higher with rye.

> One more question -- I understand that acidity is key to rye doughs.
> Is it critical that this acidity be present at mixing time (i.e., from
> the pre-ferment), or can I use a small amount of not-too-sour
> pre-ferment and rely on acid production during bulk fermentation?

I found a difference when thoroughly mixing (almost foamy) rye and water
at the very beginning and not doing it. The latter, identically made
bread (60/40 wheat rye mix) showed a better structure which means to me
that amylase activity is happening right away and has affect. If you are
doing 30 minutes of autolyzing without starter, you may contribute to
deterioration.

I don't think that acid production during bulk fermentation is the way
to go and if I remember right, literature gives the amount of acidity
required to be able to make rye breads with various amounts of rye
content. That acidity is contained in the initial starter amount before
mixing.

please see the table at the bottom of:

http://samartha.net/SD/SourdoughDefinition.html#SEC11

And, Dick Adams wrote:

> My advice:
>
> Forget rye.
>
> Life is too short.

Even if you think life is too short, is it worth living a compromise?

A true sourhead hits the rye head on.

Rye is _the_ sourdough grain because one can't make rye breads without
souring and rye does souring naturally, all by itself.


Samartha