On 2005-08-24, Samartha Deva > wrote:
> Randall Nortman wrote:
[...]
>> One questionable thing I read is that the pentosan gums in rye will
>> tend to "gobble up" the water before the gluten has a chance to
>> hydrate, resulting in poor gluten quality. That author recommended
>> initial mixing with only 2/3 of the water to make a stiff dough, then
>> an autolyse, then mixing to a smooth ball. Then the remaining water
>> is added a little bit at a time, kneading after each addition until
>> the dough is smooth. I'm afraid I don't see the logic in this method;
>> why not add all the water at once? How does this help the gluten get
>> more of the water than the gums? Any thoughts?
>
> Where was that? Could you quote the reference please. If it was Laurel's
> Kitchen Bread Book, it would be a good opportunity to start a discussion
> about the usefulness of information in this book under the aspect of
> sourdough. As far as I remember, they did not give any sources either.
[...]
Good guess, that's exactly where I read it. I've found that it's a
very good book otherwise (though I don't turn to it much for sourdough
advice). It's the only book I've found with a lot of information on
whole-grain breads, and as an added bonus it gives recipes in both
volume and weight measures.
>> Also,
>> opinions on the right hydration would be appreciated; my standard for
>> 100% whole wheat is 67-70%. Rye ought to be able to absorb more, in
>> theory, but then my (limited) experience says that it will be very
>> sticky, so I would tend to want to make it drier.
>
> Rye is sticky, there is no way around and hydration is higher with rye.
So when I'm replacing some whole-grain wheat flour in a recipe with an
equal amount of whole-grain rye, I should increase the hydration? I
can deal with the stickiness; my primary concern is in getting the
dough stiffness correct, so that the loaves can hold their shape when
not baked in a loaf pan.
>> One more question -- I understand that acidity is key to rye doughs.
>> Is it critical that this acidity be present at mixing time (i.e., from
>> the pre-ferment), or can I use a small amount of not-too-sour
>> pre-ferment and rely on acid production during bulk fermentation?
>
> I found a difference when thoroughly mixing (almost foamy) rye and water
> at the very beginning and not doing it. The latter, identically made
> bread (60/40 wheat rye mix) showed a better structure which means to me
> that amylase activity is happening right away and has affect. If you are
> doing 30 minutes of autolyzing without starter, you may contribute to
> deterioration.
No, the starter is mixed into the dough right from the start, before
the autolyse step. In fact, I go ahead and put the salt in as well,
even though it is generally recommended to do that after autolyse.
It's probably better to wait, but I like to shoot for a balance
between laziness and perfection.
> I don't think that acid production during bulk fermentation is the way
> to go and if I remember right, literature gives the amount of acidity
> required to be able to make rye breads with various amounts of rye
> content. That acidity is contained in the initial starter amount before
> mixing.
>
> please see the table at the bottom of:
>
> http://samartha.net/SD/SourdoughDefinition.html#SEC11
I'm afraid I don't have the tools necessary to measure pH, nor am I
certain how that table should be interpreted anyway -- is the "acid
contents of starter" supposed to be the TTA? Would I then use this
table by looking up the pH and TTA that correspond to my chosen
percent rye flour, and wait until the starter hits these targets
before mixing the dough? Or is the "suggested rye flour contents in
percent" supposed to be interpreted as the percentage of dough that
comes from the starter?
That's just academic curiosity for me anyway, as I don't intend to
measure the pH of my starter (see laziness vs. perfection above).
Anyway, the point is that I should let my pre-ferment get nice and
sour before mixing the dough. I don't normally do that, but I can
adapt.
Incidentally, I intended to try your pumpernickel recipe once the
weather gets a bit cooler, so that I don't mind having the oven on for
24 hours straight. Until then, I'll stick with more typical wheat/rye
mix breads.
--
Randall