Randall Nortman wrote:
[..]
>>Where was that? Could you quote the reference please. If it was Laurel's
>>Kitchen Bread Book, it would be a good opportunity to start a discussion
>> about the usefulness of information in this book under the aspect of
>>sourdough. As far as I remember, they did not give any sources either.
>
> [...]
>
> Good guess, that's exactly where I read it. I've found that it's a
> very good book otherwise (though I don't turn to it much for sourdough
> advice). It's the only book I've found with a lot of information on
> whole-grain breads, and as an added bonus it gives recipes in both
> volume and weight measures.

IMO, they are a bit weak on the SD side and I got caught up/led astray
on the same phrase - water absorbing capacity/speed difference between
rye and wheat. Could not do diddely squat with that info given there and
still don't know what's up with that, if anything.

>>>Also,
>>>opinions on the right hydration would be appreciated; my standard for
>>>100% whole wheat is 67-70%. Rye ought to be able to absorb more, in
>>>theory, but then my (limited) experience says that it will be very
>>>sticky, so I would tend to want to make it drier.
>>
>>Rye is sticky, there is no way around and hydration is higher with rye.
>
>
> So when I'm replacing some whole-grain wheat flour in a recipe with an
> equal amount of whole-grain rye, I should increase the hydration?

Exactly - the more rye, the more water. The problem is that it depends
on a couple of factors. I found that 1 % too much water can screw things
up (dough too wet, not holding shape) and if I say that my bread comes
out fine with 78 % hydration and 100 % rye, too wet with 72 % hydration
and 20 % rye, fine with 70.5 % hydration and 40 % rye, it does not mean
much because my flour hydration may differ from whosoever uses those
numbers.

> I
> can deal with the stickiness; my primary concern is in getting the
> dough stiffness correct, so that the loaves can hold their shape when
> not baked in a loaf pan.

You'll probably have to experiment to find out for your situation.

> No, the starter is mixed into the dough right from the start, before
> the autolyse step. In fact, I go ahead and put the salt in as well,
> even though it is generally recommended to do that after autolyse.
> It's probably better to wait, but I like to shoot for a balance
> between laziness and perfection.

Starter before autolyzing also increases deterioration doing it also
goes towards laziness.

>>I don't think that acid production during bulk fermentation is the way
>>to go and if I remember right, literature gives the amount of acidity
>>required to be able to make rye breads with various amounts of rye
>>content. That acidity is contained in the initial starter amount before
>>mixing.
>>
>>please see the table at the bottom of:
>>
>>http://samartha.net/SD/SourdoughDefinition.html#SEC11
>
>
> I'm afraid I don't have the tools necessary to measure pH, nor am I
> certain how that table should be interpreted anyway -- is the "acid
> contents of starter" supposed to be the TTA? Would I then use this
> table by looking up the pH and TTA that correspond to my chosen
> percent rye flour, and wait until the starter hits these targets
> before mixing the dough?

Just take this as "additional information" that this is happening and
needs to be taken care of in some way or another. TTA is total titrable
acidity - the actual acid content which determines the sourness, i. e.
the sourness "uumpf". Full grain starters have more sourness with equal
pH than white flours.

If you use the starter amounts in my DM3 calculator for the different
rye %, you should be ok.

> Or is the "suggested rye flour contents in
> percent" supposed to be interpreted as the percentage of dough that
> comes from the starter?

exactly

> That's just academic curiosity for me anyway, as I don't intend to
> measure the pH of my starter (see laziness vs. perfection above).
> Anyway, the point is that I should let my pre-ferment get nice and
> sour before mixing the dough. I don't normally do that, but I can
> adapt.

If you use full grain rye for your starter and ferment it until it peaks
and activity declines, you are ok. You don't need a pH meter for that.

> Incidentally, I intended to try your pumpernickel recipe once the
> weather gets a bit cooler, so that I don't mind having the oven on for
> 24 hours straight. Until then, I'll stick with more typical wheat/rye
> mix breads.

When you do the pumpernickel, don't use aluminum foil, that gets
corroded by the acid.

Enjoy your rye adventures :-)

Samartha