acd wrote:
> Samartha Deva wrote:
[...]
>>Will they still work without yeast? Maybe, maybe not.
>>
>
>
> if you take a look at www.der-sauerteig.de there's the three step detmold
> and the (maybe lesser known) one step detmold described there.
> the one step usually takes 15-20 hours and may require baker's yeast.
>

Hamelman uses 5 % starter at 70 F for 14 - 16 hours
DM 1-Stage uses 2 - 10 % at 76 - 84 F for 15 - 24 hours

So - somewhat similar: using a 1-Stage, temp differs much, time a little.

www.der-sauerteig.de, relevent URL is:

http://www.fallerfancom.de/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=83

Well, from the

"Leider ist diese Führung nur für sehr stabile Sauerteigkulturen
geeignet, da sich sonst schnell Fremdkeime niederlassen. Außerdem wird
die Hefe nicht optimal gefördert, sodass zum Backen Bäckerhefe dem Teig
zugesetzt werden muss. Die Detmolder Ein-Stufen-Führung ist milder in
der Säure als die Drei-Stufen-Führung und deswegen müssen mindestens 40%
der gesamten Roggenmehlmenge versäuert werden."

TR quick and dirty:

"Unfortunately this process is only suitable for a very stable culture,
because quickly foreign germs establish themselves. Additionally yeast
is not optimally promoted, so that for baking bakers yeast must be added
to the final dough. The Detmold 1-step process produces more moderate
acidity as compared to the 3-stage process and therefore at least 40% of
the entire rye flour amount needs to be acidified (used in the starter)."

I am not sure how much the intrusion of foreign germs comes into play.

A more important factor with this long 1-stage process appears to be
it's sensitivity to temperature to obtain the same acidity.

-------------------------------------------------
Temp | starter amount | flour mult factor
-------------------------------------------------
24-26C 76-80F | 10 % | 19
-------------------------------------------------
26-27C 80-82F | 5 % | 36
-------------------------------------------------
27-28C 82-84F | 2 % | 92
-------------------------------------------------

(source: Sourdough Manual, Spicher/Stephan)

Just 1C/2F difference and the initial starter amount needs to be
doubled/halved.

IMO: DM 3-Stage is better, less flimsy.


> i'm wondering if a stretch&fold like with wheat bread would actually change
> that.

Hardly - it tightens the gluten which has no influence on yeast counts
and - won't work at all with higher rye %.

> ... and yes, i don't use capitals, at least not since '82 or so ...

Who cares?

Samartha