>The dough *is* tight. That's why I was asking your opinion about it. I
>let it develop for 1 1/2 hours before the second kneading.

Hi Bob

I think the dough needs more fermentation before it needs to be
punched. 1.5 times the increase in volume is not enough. It should have
at least doubled in volume before you knock it down.


a finger indent could indicate if its right for the first punch

>I know. And it should have produced an extremely chewy bread. But it didn't.

If that is the case then the kneading was not that strenuous to tighten
the gluten? It was just a means to create a form of a tight skin on the
dough and allow it to subdivide the bigger gas cells into half or
lesser pore diameters.

>> Let rest for a few minutes and roll and pull to a 14-inch rectangle
>> and roll from the wide sides into the center (as though making
>> palmiers).

> Bob that is not the way how to mold a French stick properly,,,but
> that is how beginners used to mold their breads. Or Unless the bread
> is really firm that rolling it like a Swiss roll is the way to get an
> even dimension of the loaf.

On re reading the post yeah , it just came to my mind that is one way
I used to mold my baguette by first pressing the well rested dough
piece to an oblong shape and then from the wide side fold it into the
center , then fold it in half then from starting from the wide side
roll it toward you until you reach the end of the other side then using
the heel of your hand press it to seal the seam evenly and rolling it a
few times to get the well rounded shape and rolling it back and forth
while your hands are moving opposite of each other until you reach the
ends of the cylindrical dough.
This technique is commonly used by bakers who hand mold baguettes.

>I usually have done it as a single roll from one side. It's been good
>enough, but this result was far better.

This is the way how the machine mold that particular dough to shape.


>> Pinch the seam, turn it on its side and roll/pull again. And bring
>> in the sides again and pinch it closed. Let rise on floured towel
>> (no sticks to hold them up - dough stiff enough not to need it)
>> seam side up, covered with floured towels, until it rises to three
>> times volume. Roll over onto peel, slash and bake on a stone or a
>> baguette pan (done both and both were excellent) at 450°F for 20
>> minutes (throw 1/2 cup water into the oven), lower heat to 400°F
>> for another 20 minutes.

Hmnn that method is familiar , yes but if we baked on a baguette pan
the seams are put underneath not above; however if we proofed it on
cloche we placed the seam upward which we arrange it on the canvas
setter seam down before we load it into the oven.

> The water should be thrown earlier to create steam, before the loaves
> are loaded and not after,,,maybe the oven is leaky...?Anyway some
> people do that and still can get a satisfactory crust but not the
> best.



>I didn't write it well. I threw the water in and maybe 30 seconds later
put the bread in.

Ahh , that make sense...




Oops. I meant that it was 460 grams total, comprised of 450 grams bread

flour and 10 grams whole wheat. Sorry for the confusion.


>65% hydration. This is actually a bit higher than what we did in my
>restaurant. There, with constant, low-pressure steam injection, we used
>a 58% standard.

At 65% hydration and 12.7% protein it will be firm dough that does not
spread much during baking but will maintain its symmetrical rounded
shape when baked.


>> The bread was wonderful. When it was cooling, it "sang" as the
>> crust crackled.


>No rhythm. <G> But a nice melody. Just that quiet crackling sound from a
>good crust in the moments after coming out of the oven.

I know what you mean....the melody of cracking crust is like a
musical rap by Eminem or 50 Cents.?<grin>..

>> The inside was chewy and light, even bubbles, moist crumb, no sign
>> of layers. Clean crust. I washed one with egg white to see how it
>> would take and it shined like it was made of golden glass. Very
>> high gloss, full gelatinization in the crust, no porosities except
>> in the slash, which I didn't wash.

A French bread that has a fine even grained is frowned by old time
French bakers as not authentic , but a *******ized version.
I remember one time a visiting French baker in one bakery described
that appearance as a sign of mediocre skill to the one who made it.

>Understand. I washed it after taking it out of the oven. I don't like
>the color of breads egg-washed before.

Ahh that makes sense ,, yes indeed ...an egg white glaze is sometimes
used b y some bakers in the hotel kitchen to impress the executive
chef...

One time in the past I remember one proud hotel baker ; who ,in front
of the executive chef the head baker tried to impress him of the
quality of the glaze of his freshly baked bread that ; took his cap and
tried to use the reflection of the egg white glazed bread to check
if his new hair cut was right<G>.

>> What do you think of this recipe approach?

> Honestly...I don't find the recipe and methods represent true French
> bread..

Now that everything is clear, the method looks alright but regarding
the recipe, I am not sure if the one and a half hour first
fermentation is sufficient as the bread appears to be young when
knocked down.
If the recipe was like this ratio 100/65/2/2 which corresponds to
flour/water/ fresh yeast/ and salt. Its not enough . At that protein
level of 12.7 it might need more water to get the softer consistency

>Sorry for the confusion. For a minute I couldn't understand how you got
>your 32% figure... Then I looked closer.


> The use of firm dough is like some women who inject silicone in their
> bosoms to create a bold look<grin>.. Yes it looks nice and sexy, But
> ...I don't get turned on by that<grin>..


>I know. But it's a good protection in case they fall forward.

Yup..... bread or women falling over .......a firm dough or silicone
reinforced bosom could offer some protection...<G>

Going back to the direction you stated that the bread is first kneaded
50 strokes that after mixing allowed to ferment in bulk for 1.5 to 2
hours then its knocked down and kneaded 50 times then allowed to rest
for few minutes then divided and allowed to rest again before its
rolled to a rectangle prior to final molding.
Now if the flour has a high protein level say nearly 13% then to get
the dough temperature of around 75 degF you can't mix it until well
developed and that is one reason why it does not rise as well to get a
double or triple the volume of the first bulk fermentation..Assuming
the dough is undermixed then that answers the question why there is a
need to knead 50 strokes twice....
\That state of undermixed dough from a strong flour is also conducive
in providing a close grained crumb texture.
Another comment is that the fermentation time was not applied properly
to result in the right fermentation maturity so that the bread flavor
is maximized. I anticipate that this particular system was unable to
get the best flavored French bread.
It should be allowed to mature for at least two hours , then knocked
back, folded and then allowed to rise for an hour, then divided and
formed into loaves allowed to rest for half and hour before its finally
molded to the proper shape.
With these later method the crumb grain will be more open and looks
more of a French bread and is expected to have better flavor.
I anticipate that the oven spring will be just as good( or even
better) and the bread appearance is more bold looking.

If the baker only wants to ferment at the system you have shown he
should just have use all purpose flour and reduced the hydration by 5%
to get a formula ratio of 100/60/2/2. or flour/ water/ fresh yeast and
salt.
Even with such reduced gluten content by using a medium gluten flour (
11%) the lack of good fermentation is still insufficient to bring out
the desired bread flavor.

It would have been better if that is the system ( you related) if he
just added and old refrigerated dough from yesterdays batch so it
could have improved the bread quality dramatically.

One further comment from the Italian baker , he is more keen to bake
French bread in the way how Italians made their bread.
In the same way how foreign bakers interpret that bread similarly..

By the way did the bread really taste good and how was it when cooled 5
hours after?

By thinking about the methods the bread did not provide much flavor as
the fermentation is short and the flour is a bit strong

\