James McIninch > wrote in message news:<Kppgb.701403$uu5.113994@sccrnsc04>...
> Marcelino wrote:
>

>
> > Pain requires a brain, a central nervous system, pain receptors, and
> > so on.
>
> This is not true. Many organisms very clearly experience pain without
> central nervous systems (C. elegans, etc.), and the body has no "pain
> receptors" per se. Pain is reflected quite specifically by a cascade of
> biochemical responses to external stressors. To you, it's perceived as pain
> -- unless you have lerposy. To someone with leprosy, there is no perception
> of pain at all. Ironically, pigs are the only mammal other than humans to
> contract leprosy.

Uh uh. Don't forget Armadillos...
There is a story behind that. I did my term paper when I took
pathogenic microbiology on "Hansen's disease", aka Leprosy.

Humans infected the Armadillo with it. It was not originally a vector.

>
>
> > All mammals, birds, and fish have these things. No plants do. We
> > all know this to be true: We all understand that there is a fundamental
> > difference between cutting your lawn and lighting a cat's tail on fire and
> > between breaking up a head of lettuce and bashing a dog's head in.
>
> The difference is pricipally semantic and arbitrary. It's just simpler for
> people to relate to a cuddly animal than objects that appear more plainly
> inanimate.

I dunno, I love plants, and I eat them anyway. Bunnies too. <G>

Besides, there is a difference between torturing an animal for
sadistic pleasure and killing it mercifully for food! Give me a break.
I do raise some of my own meat and it is important to me that the
animal die instantly.

It's hard to kill a plant instantly. Perhaps they suffer even more?
Maybe it's more cruel to eat plants that cannot be killed easily as
opposed to animals that die all too easily?

What about eating fertile eggs? Can it even be considered a live
animal if it is only germinated and has not really started to develop
yet?

We have to take a life to eat. That the way things are.....

>
>
> > Birds, mammals, and fish are made of flesh, bones, and fat, just as we
> > are.
>
> Not all. Even then, they are frequently made of different flesh, bones and
> fat than we. Moreover, plants are composed of very simlar chemical
> constituents but in different configuration and concentrations. Like many
> animals, plants produce a wide array of proteins and sugars that we cannot.
> Likewise, we produce a number of compounds that other animals do not (for
> example, the neurotransmitters and receptors in animals vary quite a bit).

That's the whole thing with essential fatty acids and essential amino
acids. We HAVE to get those from our diets and will die without them.
Animal sources are much more efficient for both. To my knowlege, there
is no such thing as an essential carbohydrate. <G> That is the main
nutrient in plants.

>
>
>
> > They feel pain, just as we do.
>
> But you see, that's a popular belief based on supposition. They feel pain,
> yes, but demonstrably not like we (humans do). Most animal's responses are
> quite different (both biochemically, but also behaviorally). We know that
> they, in fact, do not feel pain like we do. We know only that they, (like
> most anything else alive) feel pain.

God, that is SO true! I do some wildlife rescue work and have had to
treat seriously injured animals. I have reduced compound fractures
without anesthesia and get no reaction from the animal. A human would
probably pass out from that kind of pain... I do what I can with
locals/xylocaine, but it's not always possible. Like that rabbit I did
minor surgery on to remove a massive abcess the size of a baseball. I
removed quite a bit of dead tissue that probably had no feeling, but I
had to get rid of it all to healthy flesh. Rabbits can scream bloody
murder if you hurt them. This one uttered not a single peep.

Yes, it survived. Lived with me for about 5 years. :-) It was a
domestic rabbit some ass had released into the wild. They don't do
well.

Birds can die from pain, but I reduced a compound lower leg fracture
in a barn owl, (and according to the vet that did an x-ray on the
splinted leg later, I got it right. <G>) and the owl only reacted
slightly and more from being handled at all than from the pain of
pulling the bone back in thru the skin.

It survived and was later released after I sent it to an owl rehabber.

I also watched a raptor specialist vet down in San Antonio reduce a
wing compound fracture. I held the hawk for him so I know damned well
that most bird vets don't try to put a bird under to do this. It's too
risky. Anesthesia is very, very risky to birds. I was not comfortable
with doing a wing myself so just wrapped the exposed bone with
neosporin and saline moistened gauze to keep it wet and let HIM do it.

I worked with one of the vets I use with a large Texas rat snake that
someone had beaten with a 2x4. It had several broken ribs and the
primary lung was punctured in 3 places according to the vet. We had to
decide whether or not to treat or put it to sleep.

Snakes cannot scream so other than reflex reaction, it's hard to tell
if you hurt them. With lots of care, it survived and healed. Snake
anatomy is pretty unique.

Sorry, I'm rambling. Doing wildlife rescue work is fascinating.

>
>
>
> > I may not know quite where to draw the line. For
> > example, I'm not sure what a roach or an ant experiences.
>
> It's quite similar to any small animal. Typically the rate of response is
> faster because of the small and open circulatory system and high metabolic
> rate of many of these creatures.

Sorry but I refuse to feel sorry for pests/insects.
That is where I draw the line. I kill mosquitos by the millions and
will continue to do so. I don't eat them tho! LOL!

>
>
> > But I do know with 100 percent certainty that intentionally
> > inflicting suffering because of tradition, custom, convenience, or
> > a palate preference is unethical.
>
> You don't know that, you believe that. That conclusion is a value judgement
> based on your personal beliefs, understanding of the situation, and
> understanding of the concept of ethics. It cannot be fundamentally correct
> or true because the assertion does not present a conclusive and objectively
> testable hypothesis.

If you raise it humanely and kill it painlessly, you are NOT causing
it to suffer! Most animals would never have been born at all or lived
at all if they were not being raised for food. Humane husbandry
practices are pretty much the law now.

If you really want to know where your meat has been, raise it
yourself.

>
>
> > And if we're eating meat, dairy products, or eggs, we're intentionally
> > causing suffering, for no good reason
>
> There's little evidence for that assertion. If you perceive death or
> captivity as cruel outright, regardless of the situation, then perhaps the
> position is arguable. The fact is that while people understand the
> existence of cruelty, death, or undesirable conditions in some cases, they
> accept the conditions that actually prevail have none of these attributes
> (for example, the PETA site focuses on falsified videos, animal cruelty
> cases not associated with commercial food production, etc as a protocol for
> advancing a very specific agenda (originally animal welfare, but the focus
> is shifting to anti-globalization efforts -- that based on their more
> recent funding -- by attempting to adversely affect american and
> western-european agriculture)).
>
Raising animals for food is not cruel. There are plenty of laws in
place for humane treatment of animals!
> >
> > "PENMART01" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >> James McIninch > writes:
> >>
> >> >You're a hypocrite if you pan the consumption of animals yet still
> support
> >> >the slaughter of vegatation. It's omnivory or autotrophy, anything else
> is
> >> >just a sad delusion.
> >> >
> >> >(Incidentally, that's tongue and cheek, all).
> >>
> >> Um, that's tongue *in* cheek.
> >>
> >> Tongues and cheeks are in headcheese.
> >>
> >>
> >> M-W
> >> tongue in cheek
> >> Function: adverb
> >> Date: circa 1934
> >> : with insincerity, irony, or whimsical exaggeration
> >> ---
> >>

We have to kill to eat. Whether or not it is a plant or animal, you
are still taking a life......

C.