Boron thanks for the very helpful post....maybe i shouldnt have tossed
the dough....dam. I felt very confident about this past time because
the dough had just enough spring for me doing a knuckle test prior to
the first rise. After second rise is when i had the problem, i couldnt
get the dough to roll out for roll shaping and it stuck pretty good to
everything it came in contact with.

I think im going to start my next try just making a basic french bread.
Just plain old yeast, salt, and water nothing like fats to change the
texture and make me second guess my heart.

Thanks!

Boron Elgar wrote:
> On 5 Nov 2006 05:23:01 -0800, "nogoer" > wrote:
>
> >Im not sure how the dough even got like that. I was very careful to
> >make sure i didnt overknead it. Even my worst attempt at pizza dough
> >when i first started baking never pulled like that. Is this typical of
> >this type of dough or are there ingredients in the recipe that should
> >be measured with utmost care to help avoid this situation?
> >
> >Not that im really that experienced with baking, but i have had a bunch
> >of successful attempts with other recipes. At this point i would say my
> >biggest issue is getting the dough just right. I have yet to have that
> >eureka moment with knowing when i have the correct flour/liquid ratio.
> >I usually end up to dry or too wet.
>
> A lot of this depends on what kind of bread you are seeking to
> make...if it is a lean, artisan type bread, with a wide open, holey
> and glossy interior, they you want *very* slack dough. If you want
> close texture and crumb for something like a sandwich bread, you'll
> have a more firm dough than for lean breads and perhaps fats, milk or
> eggs for richer doughs.
>
> I do a lot of bread baking without recipes and much of what I mix up
> is by feel. There are a lot of home bakers who are not comfortable
> with that and surely for some specific recipe, if the recipe provider
> does not give you a clue as to how the dough should feel as you go
> along, it can be tricky if you don't have a lot of experience under
> your belt.
>
> Google yourself some past posts from alt.bread.recipes, hang around
> there reading things and also check out their FAQ, which is still a
> work in progress - a good one always is - and see if you can find
> yourself some answers to your questions overall. They are a good and
> helpful group over there, but do some reading before you chime in and
> I bet you'll find many of your questions already answered.
>
> http://planeguy.mine.nu/bread/index....on=faq&page=88
>
> There is no question, though, if you are working with a bread dough in
> shaping and it is springing back at you, the advice given to you by an
> OP is correct. Just walk away and let the dough relax enough so that
> it does not fight you. (cover the dough so it does not dry out)
>
> There are some wonderful techniques to learn...how to avoid kneading
> and rely instead on a simple technique called "stretch and fold,"
> finding out how you can deepen the flavor of your breads with a
> pre-ferment, how to handle sloppy, high hydration doughs, baking at
> high temps, etc.
>
> There are a gazillion web pages on the net that will help you with
> baking. One that I like because it is so very welcoming to newbies, is
> this:
> http://www.thefreshloaf.com/
>
> The most important advice I can give you is to learn the basics, then
> trust your heart, your hands and you eyes when you work with dough.
>
> Last night I took about a cup of active sourdough starter, mixed it
> with a cup of flour & enough water so that it resembled very thick
> batter, and let that ferment overnight. This morning, I put it into
> the mixer, added white flour, whole wheat, dark rye, spelt, flax seeds
> and steel cut oats, enough water to make a soft and sticky dough, (you
> touch it and it sticks to your finger), and left it to sit for 20
> minutes (look up "autolyse," where you give the flour and water mix a
> chance to rest, allow the flour to absorb the water and the gluten to
> begin forming), then went back and added my salt, let the mixer run
> just a bit to incorporate, and then put the gooey dough into an oiled
> bowl. I will let it sit a bit, then stretch and fold the dough a few
> times (http://planeguy.mine.nu/bread/index....n=faq&page=129)
> and then let it rise, take it out and form it into loaves for another
> rise, then bake.
>
> You needn't have the dough in a bowl for stretch and fold, many/most
> do it on a board or cloth. I have played with doughs enough to keep it
> in the bowl and do this.
>
> Best advice? Have fun and experiment. Flour and water are cheap, and
> so is yeast if you buy it in bulk and keep it in the freezer (it keeps
> for ages!) Read a few books, such as Peter Reinhart's "The Bread
> Baker's Apprentice" and Jeffrey Hamelman's "Bread: A Baker's Book of
> Techniques and Recipes" and you will lean a lot and have some fun
> while you're learning, too. Check your library or used books sites
> online for help.
>
> There is no "one true path" to making bread. Read up, study, practice
> and find what works best for you, your kitchen, the flours/grains you
> prefer, your climate, etc...you will never find a cheaper hobby, and
> one that can be nourishing and fun, too.
>
> Boron
>
> >Thanks djs0302
> >
> wrote:
> >> nogoer wrote:
> >> > Im using this recipe trying to make rolls. Twice ive tried the recipe
> >> > and both times im extremely frustrated. The first time i thought i
> >> > overworked the dough. The second time i made sure i didnt over work the
> >> > dough. Both times it was like a trampoline! I couldnt roll out the
> >> > rolls either time without them pulling right back. The second time i
> >> > left the dough a little wetter so the flaps joined better but the rolls
> >> > just melded into one. Ive made bread before without issue, but getting
> >> > the dough right has always been a challenge.
> >> >
> >> *RECIPE SNIPPED*
> >>
> >> When dough starts acting like that the only thing you can do is walk
> >> away from it for about 15 minutes and let the dough relax. The more
> >> you try to stretch it the more it's going to spring back. After 15
> >> minutes try stretching the dough again. If it starts to spring back
> >> STOP and walk away for another 10 minutes.