Alex Rast wrote:
> at Wed, 23 Jun 2004 06:03:14 GMT in
> >, (Bob (this
> one)) wrote :
>=20
>> Alex Rast wrote:
>>=20
>>> at Tue, 22 Jun 2004 23:19:02 GMT in=20
>>> >,=20
>>> OSPAM (JLove98905) wrote :
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>> I'm not quite sure what I did wrong, but my whipped cream
>>>> kind of liquified in the fridge after I made it. ... What's
>>>> the key to getting good stiff whipped cream? And what causes
>>>> it to fall flat in the fridge?
>>>=20
>>> The big key is to use cream marked "heavy cream", not "whipping
>>> cream". Whipping cream, despite the name, is usually not
>>> high-fat enough to whip properly and stay whipped.
>>=20
>> Of course it is. Millions of gallons of it are whipped every day.
>>=20
>=20
> IME, whipping cream never whips completely stiff (i.e. stiff enough
> that you can turn the bowl upside down, and tends to collapse in
> the fridge. I've seen enough posts on the net to see that other
> people seem to have had similar experiences. I don't claim to have
> definitive information - what I'm talking about is based on what
> I've seen and read.
And in my restaurants, we routinely whipped quarts of whipping cream
(36%) every day. Stiff enough to frost cakes and stiff enough to do
tall garnishes on desserts. Stiff enough to put on hot coffee drinks.
Stiff enough to live in the fridge for 24 hours or even more when
needed in quantity for banquets.
>>> Heavy cream usually is. You want 40%+ fat.
>>=20
>> You can't buy cream with fat content like that in the US and I
>> don't see it very often in Europe either, unless you're getting
>> it from the dairy directly. Commercial creams for whipping that
>> are sold at retail are 30% or 36%. Foodservice operators can get
>> 40% cream.
>=20
> I don't know where you live, but in Seattle I can get 40% and 46%
> cream readily. Most supermarkets have the 40%. Many high-end
> supermarkets have the 46%.
>=20
> In Britain, virtually every supermarket carries the 46% "Double
> cream" which is IMHO the ultimate cream for whipping. Of course, in
> Britain, you can also get clotted cream, which is around 55%. You
> can get clotted cream here in Seattle as well.
Clotted cream is cooked; that's how it became clotted. European double
creams nowadays are virtually all ultrapasteurized.
>>> In addition, stay away from ultra-pasteurized ...
>>=20
>> It's all but impossible to stay away from ultrapasteurized cream
>> if you're buying it in supermarkets. It will whip just fine and
>> the gums will help stabilize it. Thickness is a function of total
>> milkfat and temperature. Cold=3Dthick.
>=20
> Again, here in Seattle, pasteurized cream is commonplace. You can
> find it in every supermarket. Virtually all of them also carry ones
> without gums. I buy cream all the time that is 40%, pure cream,
> pasteurized. It stays stable at room temperature for extended
> periods. Personally, I think this is the way cream for whipping
> should be. You shouldn't have to get obsessive about chilling.
What do you mean that "It stays stable at room temperature for
extended periods."? Warm milkfat won't increase in volume anything
like milkfat will. It won't set up the fat-protein matrix as well.
>>> As others have mentioned, a plastic bowl is also a bad idea,=20
>>> especially since the cream may absorb a plasticky flavour from
>>> it.
>>=20
>> "...a plasticky flavor..." Right. Like food-safe plastics have
>> any flavor at all.
>=20
> Every plastic I've ever encountered has some plasticky flavour to
> it.
Foodsafe plastic is so designated because it doesn't outgas and it
doesn't provide a surface that can be tasted, because it's inert.
> Some are less aggressive than others, but it's always there, even
> if it's mostly a sort of flatness that's a little difficult to
> place if you're not familiar with what it represents. The transfer
> goes both ways, btw - a plastic bowl will absorb flavours from the
> food. This can make other foods made in it later have the flavour
> of the earlier food, and also it implies that you're always losing
> some of the food's flavour into the bowl.
>=20
>=20
>>> For chocolate flavour, btw, it's a little better to melt some=20
>>> chocolate and whip it into the cream just before the cream
>>> becomes fully stiff. The chocolate will stabilise the cream
>>> very well.
>>=20
>> And warm it nicely to help it deflate.
>=20
> That's what you'd think might happen but it actually doesn't.
> Chocolate doesn't have to be brought particularly hot to melt (only
> about 95 F), and if you're mixing it in right, in a thin stream
> poured out from the bowl containing the melted chocolate, what
> actually happens is that as the chocolate hits the cream, it cools
> and the cocoa butter recrystallises, stabilising the cream. If,
> however, you *fold* the chocolate in, by pouring in a large amount
> of chocolate into the bowl and mixing it with a spatula rather than
> using the beaters, yes, it will deflate badly. This is one occasion
> when folding is the wrong technique to maintain volume.
Alex, you're talking to me as though I'm a rookie, and maybe I was one
about 30 years ago before I opened my first restaurant. Save these
little speeches. Butter liquefies at about 93=B0F. Chocolate will melt
sufficiently to work at a good deal cooler temp than 95=B0. But it will
seize upon being added to cold cream. That's when you get little
specks of chocolate distributed throughout the whipped cream. If the
chocolate is cool enough not to do that and the cream is warm enough
not to cause the seizing, the final volume will be considerably less
than it would have been otherwise.
>>> It's also possible, if rewhipping didn't work, that you
>>> overwhipped it and the cream separated into curds and whey. Did
>>> it return to an even fluid
>>=20
>> Cream that has been whipped to any sort of peaks won't return to
>> a liquid. Overwhipping cream won't get curds and whey; it'll get
>> butter and buttermilk.
>=20
> Yes, these are better terms for what I'm describing. However, I
> have seen cream whipped into peaks return to a liquid, even in the
> fridge. (If it didn't, why would there be any discussion about the
> need to stabilise it)?
There's a lot of physics and chemistry going on here. The most
frequent apparent break in cream is when the water components separate
from the fat and the whole thing seems wet. That's why professionals
put the whipped cream into a strainer to permit the water to drain.
Having done that, there's no need to add anything to stabilize it. It
will remain airy and whipped for days.
>>> It's easy to do this with whipping cream, because it may
>>> *never* whip fully stiff and you might well continue whipping
>>> in a futile attempt to achieve a state it's never going to
>>> have.
>>=20
>> This is plain silly. If you want a good stiff whipped cream, whip
>> it in a cold bowl - metal or glass - add sugar or not, until it
>> holds an upright peak. Scrape it into a strainer and put that
>> over a bowl to drain. Put the whole thing into the fridge. You'll
>> get a small, watery puddle in the bottom of the bowl and the
>> cream will stay whipped and get a nice density.
>=20
> Perhaps that's what you've experienced. My experiences are
> different. In any case, heavy cream doesn't develop that watery
> puddle and the density is far superiour. You don't need to use a
> strainer or get fussy at all. Double cream, as I mentioned, is the
> ultimate, and whips up in under a minute.
*All* creams have a water component that will separate in time and
temperature. Even butter is about 20% water. I've gotten
custom-centrifuged creams that were as high as 50% milkfat from a
dairy nearby and even they will separate to some extent upon holding.
>> For a chocolate flavor, combine cocoa powder with a bit of liquid
>> sugar (corn syrup or simple syrup) and whip it into the cream.
>=20
> Personally, I prefer chocolate because it delivers a *chocolate*
> flavour as opposed to a *cocoa* flavour (yes, they are detectably
> different) although a cocoa flavoured cream is also good and has a
> lighter taste that's more appropriate in some situations.
<LOL> Cocoa is concentrated chocolate; no additives. Hardly lighter.
I think we're done here, Alex. The last words are all yours.
Pastorio