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at Thu, 24 Jun 2004 04:00:54 GMT in >,
(Bob (this one)) wrote :

>Alex Rast wrote:
>
....
>>
>> IME, whipping cream never whips completely stiff (i.e. stiff enough
>> that you can turn the bowl upside down, and tends to collapse in
>> the fridge. ...
>
>And in my restaurants, we routinely whipped quarts of whipping cream
>(36%) every day. Stiff enough to frost cakes and stiff enough to do
>tall garnishes on desserts. Stiff enough to put on hot coffee drinks.
>Stiff enough to live in the fridge for 24 hours or even more when
>needed in quantity for banquets.

I don't deny that your results may have been different. It's just that I've
seen not only myself but others encounter difficulties with what's called
"whipping cream". Also, presumably in your restaurants you used commercial
equipment. Could that have had an impact? A practical example of my
definition of "stiff" is stiff enough to be able to hold up a full-sized
strawberry without collapsing or the strawberry sinking in, so that, for
instance, you can pile a big billow of cream atop a shortcake, and garnish
with a fresh strawberry, which you set on top (usually with a slight push
to embed it in the cream slightly for stability - otherwise the strawberry
might topple off), and have the strawberry not sink in at all, nicely
propped up by the whipped cream.

>>>> Heavy cream usually is. You want 40%+ fat.
>>>
>>> You can't buy cream with fat content like that in the US...
>>
>> I don't know where you live, but in Seattle I can get 40% and 46%
>> cream readily. Most supermarkets have the 40%. Many high-end
>> supermarkets have the 46%.
>>
>> In Britain, virtually every supermarket carries the 46% "Double
>> cream" which is IMHO the ultimate cream for whipping. Of course, in
>> Britain, you can also get clotted cream, which is around 55%. You
>> can get clotted cream here in Seattle as well.
>
>Clotted cream is cooked; that's how it became clotted.

Agreed. I'm not saying you'd use clotted cream for whipping, merely
pointing out that the available milkfat percentages exceed 40% in Britain
fairly routinely.

> European double
>creams nowadays are virtually all ultrapasteurized.

If this is true, it would have to be a very recent event, happening in the
few years since I last lived in Europe. Nonetheless, since I can get
pasteurized double cream here in Seattle, I strongly suspect that it's not
hard to find in Britain, where double cream is much more readily available
than in Seattle.

>> I buy cream all the time that is 40%, pure cream,
>> pasteurized. It stays stable at room temperature for extended
>> periods.

>What do you mean that "It stays stable at room temperature for
>extended periods."?

What I do is whip it up from cream straight out of the fridge, in a bowl
out of the cupboard (i.e. unchilled). Then I can leave it out on the
counter or on a table for hours (at least 5 or 6), even (as it was this
weekend) in temperatures of 85 degrees plus. It doesn't separate at all
during this time.

> Warm milkfat won't increase in volume anything
>like milkfat will. It won't set up the fat-protein matrix as well.

Yes, it's silly deliberately to warm cream before beating. But I think that
it's also equally silly that with some of the creams being sold today it
should be necessary to chill beaters and bowl before beating.

>>> "...a plasticky flavor..." Right. Like food-safe plastics have
>>> any flavor at all.
>>
>> Every plastic I've ever encountered has some plasticky flavour to
>> it.
>
>Foodsafe plastic is so designated because it doesn't outgas and it
>doesn't provide a surface that can be tasted, because it's inert.

That's the theory, but the reality is different. I've found every so-called
"food-grade plastic" does contribute some flavour. Now, again, I'll point
out that if you didn't know what it was that you were trying to taste, you
wouldn't probably notice it, or rather you might think the cream (or other
food) tasted slightly different than at other times but wouldn't know why
or be inclined to pass it off to batch variations in the cream. But the
flavour plastics impart has been there every time for me, nonetheless.

>>>> For chocolate flavour, btw, it's a little better to melt some
>>>> chocolate and whip it into the cream just before the cream
>>>> becomes fully stiff. The chocolate will stabilise the cream
>>>> very well.
>>>
>>> And warm it nicely to help it deflate.
>>
>> That's what you'd think might happen but it actually doesn't.
>> Chocolate doesn't have to be brought particularly hot to melt (only
>> about 95 F), and if you're mixing it in right, in a thin stream
>> poured out from the bowl containing the melted chocolate, what
>> actually happens is that as the chocolate hits the cream, it cools
>> and the cocoa butter recrystallises, stabilising the cream. ...
>
>Alex, you're talking to me as though I'm a rookie, and maybe I was one
>about 30 years ago before I opened my first restaurant. Save these
>little speeches. Butter liquefies at about 93°F. Chocolate will melt
>sufficiently to work at a good deal cooler temp than 95°. But it will
>seize upon being added to cold cream.

Again, I'd have been inclined to agree if my experiences in practice didn't
differ. Chocolate will certainly seize if added to cold liquid cream, but
it would seem that, once the cream has been whipped, the density is
sufficiently low to prevent that from occurring. In every case, I've found,
the chocolate whips in smoothly and without specks. I speculate that at the
low density of whipped cream, the rate of thermal transfer from the
chocolate to the cream is sufficiently slow that the chocolate doesn't have
the time to seize before it's already been whipped.

>> ... I
>> have seen cream whipped into peaks return to a liquid, even in the
>> fridge. (If it didn't, why would there be any discussion about the
>> need to stabilise it)?
>
>There's a lot of physics and chemistry going on here. The most
>frequent apparent break in cream is when the water components separate
>from the fat and the whole thing seems wet.

That's not what I'm describing. Yes, cream can separate as you describe,
and when it's like that, what happens is that initially the cream looks
fine but in a couple of hours, or a day or so, there's a very watery liquid
at the bottom of a bowl of whipped cream which looks a bit stiffer and
fluffier. But when I say "return to a liquid", what I mean is that I've
seen cream put into the fridge and then literally slump down right back
into ordinary-looking liquid cream.

>> Perhaps that's what you've experienced. My experiences are
>> different. In any case, heavy cream doesn't develop that watery
>> puddle ...
>
>*All* creams have a water component that will separate in time and
>temperature.

Agreed, but the crucial term here is "in time". Probably even heavy cream
separates in time, but that time is sufficiently long that with the cream I
use, I've not seen it - i.e. the time it takes to separate is longer than
the longest time one would need to hold it. Thus, for practical purposes,
you can say that the cream doesn't separate.

>>> For a chocolate flavor, combine cocoa powder with a bit of liquid
>>> sugar (corn syrup or simple syrup) and whip it into the cream.
>>
>> Personally, I prefer chocolate because it delivers a *chocolate*
>> flavour as opposed to a *cocoa* flavour (yes, they are detectably
>> different) although a cocoa flavoured cream is also good and has a
>> lighter taste that's more appropriate in some situations.
>
><LOL> Cocoa is concentrated chocolate; no additives. Hardly lighter.

Yes, lighter, because the cocoa butter of a good chocolate contributes its
own flavour component. Chocolate and cocoa taste considerably different - a
natural-process cocoa tasting rather sharp, but lighter in the sense that
it doesn't have an enveloping flavour quality - the flavour hits quickly
and then goes away. A Dutch cocoa is very distinctive, with a metallic
twang that is instantly recognisable. Finally, chocolate has a powerful
whack, combined with, as I say, a roundness and enveloping quality. It's
not necessary to use chocolate with additives - you can find unsweetened,
high-quality chocolate if you wish, from companies such as Domori, Bonnat,
and Slitti.

--
Alex Rast

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