On Tue, 10 Feb 2004 16:58:35 GMT, Robin Carroll-Mann
.> wrote:

>On Tue, 10 Feb 2004 11:31:58 GMT, Frogleg > wrote:
>
>>Unless the food safety folk are talking through their
>>hats, last night's unrefrigerated pasta and meat sauce miay be dubious
>>as this morning's breakfast, much less lunch or dinner. Even with
>>canned/preserved stuff, once the container is open, many items go
>>'off' rather quickly.

>There's also a difference between food left overnight on a counter in
>a warm kitchen, and food put away in a cool cellar (or pickled or
>potted). We know that medieval people did eat leftovers. There are
>cookbooks with recipes that use cold roast meat, and other recipes
>that say things like, "And this pie will keep for four days...".

Yeah, but...how many urbanites have a "cool cellar," then or now?
Right now, it's about 40F outside (and not a great deal warmer
indoors, considering the price of natural gas), and quite possible to
stick a secure box in a shady spot to store that 4-day pie. Come the
end of July, when the average high temperature is 89F (32C) and the
low not much cooler, "this pie" would last about 45 minutes
unrefrigerated before growing fur. A lot of these historic
cookbook/household books come from northern Europe where "room
temperature" to which red wine was to be warmed was about 55F (13C).
>
>Take a look at a household book, like that written by the Goodman of
>Paris. (A 15th-century merchant, writing instructions for his
>inexperienced young bride.)

Ahh. Trust a man to tell a woman what to do...


>The food section of the book is online
>at:
>http://www.daviddfriedman.com/Mediev.../Menagier.html
>
>He says things like, "a hare is good for 15 days in winter, but 7 or 8
>days in summer, if kept out of the sun". He also makes a lot of
>references to salted meats.

Interesting site. Thanks for the URL.

Would *you* eat a rabbit that had been hanging in 85 degrees for a
week? Outside a smokehouse, I mean.
>
>Four centuries later, Mrs. Beeton is making similar statements.
>
>"BUTTER may be kept fresh for ten or twelve days by a very simple
>process. Knead it well in cold water till the buttermilk is extracted;
>then put it in a glazed jar, which invert in another, putting into the
>latter a sufficient quantity of water to exclude the air. Renew the
>water every day."

Yes, new "butter bells" are sold today. A friend with a rural past
mentioned keeping milk bottles in bowls of water. Evaporative cooling
is common in low-humidity areas. I very much doubt whether 85 degree
water in 55% humidity would significantly cool/preserve anything.
>
>"Have ready a large saucepan, capable of holding 3 or 4 quarts, full
>of boiling water. Put the eggs into a cabbage-net, say 20 at a time,
>and hold them in the water (which must be kept boiling) for 20
>seconds....

Yeah, but...would you want to make an omelet from them?

I guess my original point was that (obviously) people have been able
to survive and be nourished for millennia without domestic
refrigeration, but it's sure a lot easier today (happy dance). I
always quite liked chipped beef on toast (when it was real beef, not a
sort of thin-sliced sausage), but I'm not sure I'd like it every day.
In fact, I thoroughly enjoy the option of having a variety of foods
and ingredients every day.

I have a minor interest in 'seasonal' local foods in preference to
Mexican tomatoes in December, but I suppose I don't want to be limited
to potatoes and cabbage all winter long. My supermarket eggs keep for
a month or more. My (refrigerated) leftovers are edible for several
days. I can nearly always buy fresh milk and meat and not have to
consume them on the spot. Or preserve them.

We are very fortunate, foodwise.