"Frogleg" > a écrit dans le message de
...
> On Tue, 10 Feb 2004 16:58:35 GMT, Robin Carroll-Mann
> .> wrote:
>
> >On Tue, 10 Feb 2004 11:31:58 GMT, Frogleg > wrote:
> >
> >>Unless the food safety folk are talking through their
> >>hats, last night's unrefrigerated pasta and meat sauce miay be dubious
> >>as this morning's breakfast, much less lunch or dinner. Even with
> >>canned/preserved stuff, once the container is open, many items go
> >>'off' rather quickly.
>
> >There's also a difference between food left overnight on a counter in
> >a warm kitchen, and food put away in a cool cellar (or pickled or
> >potted). We know that medieval people did eat leftovers. There are
> >cookbooks with recipes that use cold roast meat, and other recipes
> >that say things like, "And this pie will keep for four days...".
>
> Yeah, but...how many urbanites have a "cool cellar," then or now?
> Right now, it's about 40F outside (and not a great deal warmer
> indoors, considering the price of natural gas), and quite possible to
> stick a secure box in a shady spot to store that 4-day pie. Come the
> end of July, when the average high temperature is 89F (32C) and the
> low not much cooler, "this pie" would last about 45 minutes
> unrefrigerated before growing fur. A lot of these historic
> cookbook/household books come from northern Europe where "room
> temperature" to which red wine was to be warmed was about 55F (13C).

You don't need a full cool cellar, just use good stone, or good earth to
build your house and it will still be far cooler inside than out in summer.
Many houses were quite cool in summer (and quite damp in winter, you can't
get everything).

> >Take a look at a household book, like that written by the Goodman of
> >Paris. (A 15th-century merchant, writing instructions for his
> >inexperienced young bride.)
>
> Ahh. Trust a man to tell a woman what to do...
>
>
> >The food section of the book is online
> >at:
> >http://www.daviddfriedman.com/Mediev.../Menagier.html
> >
> >He says things like, "a hare is good for 15 days in winter, but 7 or 8
> >days in summer, if kept out of the sun". He also makes a lot of
> >references to salted meats.
>
> Interesting site. Thanks for the URL.
>
> Would *you* eat a rabbit that had been hanging in 85 degrees for a
> week? Outside a smokehouse, I mean.

85 degrees, certainly, if you speak in Celsius that would kill most
anything, but seriously, I still have to see a kitchen from ante 1900 where
the temperature is as high as 30° (85°F) please remember that 60 cm (2') of
stone or earth (sorry don't know the technical name of the mix of clay and
straw used to build in the timberframe construction) combined with small
windows quite nicely keeps heat and extreme cold at bay. Oftentimes, old
homes have kitchen cupboards that are anywhere from 15°C to 18°C (around
60°F - 65°F) year in year out.

> I guess my original point was that (obviously) people have been able
> to survive and be nourished for millennia without domestic
> refrigeration, but it's sure a lot easier today (happy dance). I
> always quite liked chipped beef on toast (when it was real beef, not a
> sort of thin-sliced sausage), but I'm not sure I'd like it every day.
> In fact, I thoroughly enjoy the option of having a variety of foods
> and ingredients every day.

There I can only concur with you, with the proviso that a lot of indigenous
foodstuffs have been forgotten in this era of exotic standardised cooking.
I think among others of quince, nettles, and a lot of difficult to use
things that are totally phased off our tables. People in ancient times have
more variety than one could think if you just remove all non indigenous
products from the current offer.

> I have a minor interest in 'seasonal' local foods in preference to
> Mexican tomatoes in December, but I suppose I don't want to be limited
> to potatoes and cabbage all winter long. My supermarket eggs keep for
> a month or more. My (refrigerated) leftovers are edible for several
> days. I can nearly always buy fresh milk and meat and not have to
> consume them on the spot. Or preserve them.

Potatoes and cabbage, and before Columbus not even potatoes, but you forget
a whole lot of winter greens like beets, spinach, swiss chard, and root
vegetables like turnips, swedes plus the preserved autumn fruit, like
apples and pears, all the dry goods like grain, beans and peas, etc... You
still have quite a little variety,
And yes you could have milk all year long, and as for meat you can have
small animals slaugthered quite regularly (hen, rabbits) and in autumn you
could swap meat from your one slaughter with your neighbours who'ld
slaughter their hog a week earlyer or later and thus have fresh pork quite
often. In France, King Henry IV said that under his reign each family
should have a hen in the pot every week.

> We are very fortunate, foodwise.

With that I must absolutely agree, my point is just that ancients had
tricks to stretch whatever was available as far as could do, and thus were
not just worse off than we are, but ate very differently and sometimes not
bad at all, and one cannot imagine food in the past as just our food minus
lots of things. (I don't say you do, just that it is very common.)

--
Salutations, greetings,
Guiraud Belissen, Chteau du Ciel, Drachenwald
Chris CII, Rennes, France