TG wrote:
> On 27 May, 17:17, Tim > wrote:
>
>> I think the likelihood of offspring of the original culture
>> being present is slim at best.
>>
>
> Hi Tim, why do you find it so difficult to believe? Why is it so
> difficult that the original culture can't survive? What do you think
> is better able to survive in the mixture than the original starter. Do
> you see what I'm getting at? It's an unknown to you either way so why
> should one be more likely than the other? Something has survived
> that's a fact. You'll just have to accept that you don't know either
> way and that it doesn't really matter anyway.
>
It is true that it probably doesn't matter, but I am inclined to believe
that if the starter was well maintained, it is most probably the
original culture.

Dr. Michael Gaenzle, formerly of the German Cereal Institute, studies
sourdough starters and says he has starters that the institute has had
for over 50 years that have not changed in that time.

Dr. Ed Wood in his "World Sourdoughs From Antiquity" book recounts an
experiment he did for National Geographic wherein he tried to capture an
authentic Egyptian culture from the air. He irradiated the flour so it
would not have anything alive on it. In a lower-rent fashion, a number
of people in rec.food.sourdough tried to get local cultures by pouring
boiling water over the flour to try to sterilize it. In both cases, the
experienced people went from nearly universal success at starting a
culture to a very high failure rate. The critter count is MUCH higher
on the flour than in the air. This corroborates the idea that most
cultures are started from the flour, not from the air. Which suggests
that if critters in the air are rarely able to start a culture, it seems
unlikely that critters in the air are also unable to take over a starter

Similarly, the yeast and bacteria count in an active starter is much,
much higher than the count in flour. A large part of the stability
researchers, such as Dr. Gaenzle, report in cultures is because the
lactobacillus bacteria produce a number of chemicals to kill would-be
invaders. The acidity of sourdough starter is just the front line of
defense. So, it seems very unlikely that a healthy starter could be
taken over by the yeast and bacteria found in either the air or flour.

Of course, that leaves someone in the back row raising their hand and
saying, "I think you're full of it! When I moved from San Francisco to
Poughkeepsie, my starter changed! Now, how do explain that, Mr.
Smartypants?". If you've been taking good care of your culture, what
could make the bread made with it taste different? Hunters prize boars
that have been feeding on acorns - it gives the meat a great taste (or
so I'm told - if you want to send me a care package, I'd love to try
some!) French farmers force feed their geese special herbs and spices
to give the pate made from the livers of those geese special tastes.
Many nursing mothers report that when they eat this food or that, their
babies no longer like mom's milk. If more complex organisms change
their taste, or the taste of things they produce, based on what they
have been ingesting, is it any surprise that yeast and bacteria would
also change their taste, and the taste of the breads they produce, based
on changes to their diet?

There are regional differences in flours, even when the brand name on
the sack is the same. Different flours taste different. And it seems
that yeast and bacteria notice differences we don't.

Try converting your starter from white to whole wheat or rye flour.
There are very rapid changes to the aroma and taste of the starter, well
beyond what you'd expect from the changes in the flour.

A number of experienced sourdough bakers have said that the key to
copying another baker's bread isn't getting their sourdough starter, it
lies in finding out what kind of flour they are using.

Bottom line, I have no trouble believing that Carl's is, in fact, the
same starter that Carl's ancestors used.

Mike
--
Mike Avery mavery at mail dot otherwhen dot com
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