We need to buy a freezer. The *chest* type is what we want with the lid on
the top.

'Which' magazine recommends the Miele GT263 and for a hundred pounds less
the Zanussi ZFC 321 which comes in at £260.

The Miela has this feature which is suppose to expel the air inside, after
the lid is closed. With less air trapped the theory is that it will not need
defrosting as often as normal.

Knowing that its just not easy to get an airtight seal, the suspicion is
that it might draw the air out but; it will creep back in again anyway.

Would anyone with experience of the Miele freezer know if its worth paying
the extra £100 for this 'de-frost' feature. In other words does it work as
a means of cutting out defrosting? Thanks for any advice.

On Jun 1, 9:20*am, "john hamilton" > wrote:
> We need to buy a freezer. The *chest* type is what we want with the lid on
> the top.
>
> 'Which' magazine recommends the Miele GT263 and for a hundred pounds less
> the Zanussi ZFC 321 which comes in at £260.
>
> The Miela has this feature which is suppose to expel the air inside, after
> the lid is closed. With less air trapped the theory is that it will not need
> defrosting as often as normal.
>

Let's look at some general issues. Does this solution target a problem
that you will have?

Allowing moist air to enter the freezer will allow frost to build up,
increasing the need to defrost.

Will you be opening the lid of the freezer frequently?

Once open, will you have the freezer lid open for long periods of
time?

How humid is the room in which the freezer will be kept? Cellars tend
to be humid. Warm summer air can hold more moisture than cold winter
air. Opening the lid in a humid cellar in the summertime will increase
the need to defrost.

Modern fridge and freezer seals are quite air-tight. Do you have cold
air leaking from your current fridge? Probably not.

john hamilton wrote:
>
> The Miela has this feature which is suppose to expel the air inside, after
> the lid is closed. With less air trapped the theory is that it will not need
> defrosting as often as normal.

You mean there's a partial vacuum inside?
Wouldn't that make plastic bags and
unopened milk cartons burst?

In article >, spamtrap1888 > wrote:
>On Jun 1, 9:20=A0am, "john hamilton" > wrote:
>> We need to buy a freezer. The *chest* type is what we want with the lid o=
>n
>> the top.
>>
>> 'Which' magazine recommends the Miele GT263 and for a hundred pounds less
>> the Zanussi ZFC 321 which comes in at =A3260.
>>
>> The Miela has this feature which is suppose to expel the air inside, afte=
>r
>> the lid is closed. With less air trapped the theory is that it will not n=
>eed
>> defrosting as often as normal.
>>
>
>Let's look at some general issues. Does this solution target a problem
>that you will have?
>
>Allowing moist air to enter the freezer will allow frost to build up,
>increasing the need to defrost.
>
>Will you be opening the lid of the freezer frequently?
>
>Once open, will you have the freezer lid open for long periods of
>time?
>
>How humid is the room in which the freezer will be kept? Cellars tend
>to be humid. Warm summer air can hold more moisture than cold winter
>air. Opening the lid in a humid cellar in the summertime will increase
>the need to defrost.
>
>Modern fridge and freezer seals are quite air-tight. Do you have cold
>air leaking from your current fridge? Probably not.


We had little problem with one opened little.

A tip I learn from the lab. Get flat sheeting to put under the
lid, so air does not get whirled when you quickly open it up.
Just slide the separate sections out of the way for access. Given a 6 foot
freezer, you can make 2-4 sections. This can also be insulation
foam sheeting. 1/2 inch. You should get very little infiltration.

greg

In article >,
"john hamilton" > wrote:

> Knowing that its just not easy to get an airtight seal, the suspicion is
> that it might draw the air out but; it will creep back in again anyway.

You could answer that question readily enough. Does the unit have a
vacuum relief valve that you activate in order to get the lid open
again? If not, then I'd say your suspicion is correct.

Do you really need to post this to six groups? (My newsreader won't even
allow me to respond to that many, so I beheaded two of them.)

Smitty Two wrote:
> In article >,
> "john hamilton" > wrote:
>
> > Knowing that its just not easy to get an airtight seal, the suspicion is
> > that it might draw the air out but; it will creep back in again anyway.
>
> You could answer that question readily enough. Does the unit have a
> vacuum relief valve that you activate in order to get the lid open
> again? If not, then I'd say your suspicion is correct.
>
> Do you really need to post this to six groups? (My newsreader won't even
> allow me to respond to that many, so I beheaded two of them.)

It never pumps air out to begin with sounds more realistic


NT

spamtrap1888 wrote:
>
> How humid is the room in which the freezer will be kept? Cellars tend
> to be humid. Warm summer air can hold more moisture than cold winter
> air. Opening the lid in a humid cellar in the summertime will increase
> the need to defrost.
>
Cold cellars tend to have a high humidity level, largely because they
are cold. For the freezer it's the absolute moisture level, not the RH,
that counts - to be exact the amount that will freeze out at minus
whateveritis you set it at.

Warm, humid cellar in summer? Never met the beast.

Andy

On Jun 1, 11:02*am, Andy Champ > wrote:
> spamtrap1888 wrote:
>
> > How humid is the room in which the freezer will be kept? Cellars tend
> > to be humid. Warm summer air can hold more moisture than cold winter
> > air. Opening the lid in a humid cellar in the summertime will increase
> > the need to defrost.
>
> Cold cellars tend to have a high humidity level, largely because they
> are cold. *For the freezer it's the absolute moisture level, not the RH,
> that counts - to be exact the amount that will freeze out at minus
> whateveritis you set it at.

Yes, warmer air can hold more moisture than colder air. I believe I
already typed that.

>
> Warm, humid cellar in summer? *Never met the beast.
>

Unless the cellar is deep underground, cellars still will be warmer in
summer and colder in winter. The more moisture in the room ambient,
the more moisture will enter the freezer when the lid id opened.

In article >, spamtrap1888 > wrote:

>Unless the cellar is deep underground, cellars still will be warmer in
>summer and colder in winter.

Surely you don't mean what you wrote.

Mark Thorson wrote:
> john hamilton wrote:
>>
>> The Miela has this feature which is suppose to expel the air inside, after
>> the lid is closed. With less air trapped the theory is that it will not need
>> defrosting as often as normal.
>
> You mean there's a partial vacuum inside?
> Wouldn't that make plastic bags and
> unopened milk cartons burst?

And if you put a murder victim in there their eyes would pop out before
they froze.

--
LSMFT

I haven't spoken to my wife in 18 months.
I don't like to interrupt her.

On Tue, 01 Jun 2010 22:44:14 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

>In article >, spamtrap1888 > wrote:
>
>>Unless the cellar is deep underground, cellars still will be warmer in
>>summer and colder in winter.
>
>Surely you don't mean what you wrote.

I was wondering about that myself. I also wonder why someone would
insist on a chest freezer.

Lou

On Tue, 1 Jun 2010 18:26:53 +0100, Janet Baraclough
> wrote:


> My current (upright) freezer is frost free. That means there is zero
>ice build up and I never, ever have to defrost it.
> I'd *strongly* recommend getting a frost-free model .

Really, Really! bad advice. The frost free part of our combo unit
has stuff we're going to use in a week or so and want to keep handy.
Everything else goes in the real freezer with no intermittent heat
blasting on it.


<http://www.ehow.com/list_6526652_disadvantages-frost_free-freezers.html>


Lou

In article >, Lou Decruss > wrote:
>On Tue, 01 Jun 2010 22:44:14 GMT, (Doug Miller)
>wrote:
>
>>In article
> >,
> spamtrap1888 > wrote:
>>
>>>Unless the cellar is deep underground, cellars still will be warmer in
>>>summer and colder in winter.
>>
>>Surely you don't mean what you wrote.
>
>I was wondering about that myself. I also wonder why someone would
>insist on a chest freezer.

I've always wondered that too -- or, more specifically, why anyone would even
consider a chest freezer. That large flat area is such a tempting place to set
all kinds of crap on top of...

Doug Miller wrote
> spamtrap1888 > wrote

>> Unless the cellar is deep underground, cellars still
>> will be warmer in summer and colder in winter.

> Surely you don't mean what you wrote.

Nothing wrong with what he wrote, the temperature of the
cellar will indeed vary like that unless it is deep underground.

In article >, "Rod Speed" > wrote:
>Doug Miller wrote
>> spamtrap1888 > wrote
>
>>> Unless the cellar is deep underground, cellars still
>>> will be warmer in summer and colder in winter.
>
>> Surely you don't mean what you wrote.
>
>Nothing wrong with what he wrote, the temperature of the
>cellar will indeed vary like that unless it is deep underground.

I guess it's a question of "compared to what?" -- I took him to mean that
cellars will be warmer in summer, and cooler in winter, than other parts of
the house.

If he meant that the cellar is warmer in summer than the cellar is in winter,
yes, that's obviously true.

Doug Miller wrote
> Rod Speed > wrote
>> Doug Miller wrote
>>> spamtrap1888 > wrote
>>>>Andy Champ > wrote
>>>>> spamtrap1888 wrote:

>>>>>> How humid is the room in which the freezer will be kept?
>>>>>> Cellars tend to be humid. Warm summer air can hold more
>>>>>> moisture than cold winter air. Opening the lid in a humid
>>>>>> cellar in the summertime will increase the need to defrost.

>>>>> Cold cellars tend to have a high humidity level, largely because they
>>>>> are cold. For the freezer it's the absolute moisture level, not the RH,
>>>>> that counts - to be exact the amount that will freeze out at minus
>>>>> whateveritis you set it at.

>>>> Yes, warmer air can hold more moisture than colder air.
>>>> I believe I already typed that.

>>>>> Warm, humid cellar in summer? Never met the beast.

>>>> Unless the cellar is deep underground, cellars still
>>>> will be warmer in summer and colder in winter.

>>> Surely you don't mean what you wrote.

>> Nothing wrong with what he wrote, the temperature of the
>> cellar will indeed vary like that unless it is deep underground.

> I guess it's a question of "compared to what?"

Its obvious he meant compared with those other seasons.

> -- I took him to mean that cellars will be warmer in summer,
> and cooler in winter, than other parts of the house.

More fool you.

> If he meant that the cellar is warmer in summer than the cellar is in winter, yes, that's obviously true.

And thats clearly what he meant given the context that you deleted from the quoting and I have restored.

In article >,
Mark Thorson > wrote:
>john hamilton wrote:
>>
>> The Miela has this feature which is suppose to expel the air inside, after
>> the lid is closed. With less air trapped the theory is that it will not need
>> defrosting as often as normal.
>
>You mean there's a partial vacuum inside?
>Wouldn't that make plastic bags and
>unopened milk cartons burst?

Wouldn't the unopened milk cartons burst anyway once the milk froze?

m

Fake ID wrote
> Mark Thorson > wrote
>> john hamilton wrote

>>> The Miela has this feature which is suppose to expel the air
>>> inside, after the lid is closed. With less air trapped the theory
>>> is that it will not need defrosting as often as normal.

>> You mean there's a partial vacuum inside?
>> Wouldn't that make plastic bags and
>> unopened milk cartons burst?

> Wouldn't the unopened milk cartons burst anyway once the milk froze?

Nope, its only glass containers that burst when the contents freeze.

On Wed, 2 Jun 2010 10:10:47 +0100, Janet Baraclough
> wrote:

>The message >
>from Lou Decruss > contains these words:
>
>> On Tue, 1 Jun 2010 18:26:53 +0100, Janet Baraclough
>> > wrote:
>
>
>> > My current (upright) freezer is frost free. That means there is zero
>> >ice build up and I never, ever have to defrost it.
>> > I'd *strongly* recommend getting a frost-free model .
>
>> Really, Really! bad advice. The frost free part of our combo unit
>> has stuff we're going to use in a week or so and want to keep handy.
>> Everything else goes in the real freezer with no intermittent heat
>> blasting on it.
>
> ? Mine stores stuff for 6 + months; and is only opened once a day
>max, to get out whatever needs to be defrosted.
>I don't have to open all the drawers because the contents are organised.

I've read the newer frost free freezers are better than the older ones
but I still wouldn't want one.

>And, heat blasts are virtually unknown in Scotland :-)

<laugh>

Lou

In article >, The Real Bev > wrote:
>On 06/01/10 19:00, Doug Miller wrote:
>
>> Lou > wrote:
(Doug Miller) wrote:
>>> > wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>Unless the cellar is deep underground, cellars still will be warmer in
>>>>>summer and colder in winter.
>>>>
>>>>Surely you don't mean what you wrote.
>>>
>>>I was wondering about that myself. I also wonder why someone would
>>>insist on a chest freezer.
>>
>> I've always wondered that too -- or, more specifically, why anyone would even
>> consider a chest freezer.
>
>The cold doesn't leak out when you open the door.

That's basically irrelevant. You *might* lose five to ten cubic feet of cold
air when opening an upright freezer -- let's call it ten. Ten cubic feet of
air has a mass of around one pound. That's not going to make any noticeable
difference in the temperature inside, unless you *leave* the door open.
>
>> That large flat area is such a tempting place to set
>> all kinds of crap on top of...
>
>And you think that's a bad thing?

Makes it kinda hard to open the lid.

>Invest in one of those nice sturdy chrome
>rolling shelf units -- when you need something in the freezer just roll it
>away. If that won't fit around the freezer, hang shelves or cabinets above it.

Or just get an upright freezer.
>
>Horizontal space should NEVER be wasted.

Which of course is yet another reason for *not* getting a chest freezer: it
takes up twice as much floor space as an upright.

In article >, "Rod Speed" > wrote:
>Fake ID wrote
>> Mark Thorson > wrote
>>> john hamilton wrote
>
>>>> The Miela has this feature which is suppose to expel the air
>>>> inside, after the lid is closed. With less air trapped the theory
>>>> is that it will not need defrosting as often as normal.
>
>>> You mean there's a partial vacuum inside?
>>> Wouldn't that make plastic bags and
>>> unopened milk cartons burst?
>
>> Wouldn't the unopened milk cartons burst anyway once the milk froze?
>
>Nope, its only glass containers that burst when the contents freeze.

Wrong.

In article >, Lou Decruss > wrote:
>On Tue, 01 Jun 2010 22:44:14 GMT, (Doug Miller)
>wrote:
>
>>In article
> >,
> spamtrap1888 > wrote:
>>
>>>Unless the cellar is deep underground, cellars still will be warmer in
>>>summer and colder in winter.
>>
>>Surely you don't mean what you wrote.
>
>I was wondering about that myself. I also wonder why someone would
>insist on a chest freezer.

MORE efficient. All I know are not self defrosting, more
efficiency, and less drying out of food. Also flavor transfer.

greg

In article >, (Doug Miller) wrote:
>In article >,
> spamtrap1888 > wrote:
>
>>Unless the cellar is deep underground, cellars still will be warmer in
>>summer and colder in winter.
>
>Surely you don't mean what you wrote.

The statement is perfectly true. Think about the reference temperature..

greg

On Tue, 01 Jun 2010 19:14:39 -0700, The Real Bev
> wrote:

>On 06/01/10 19:00, Doug Miller wrote:
>
>> Lou > wrote:
(Doug Miller) wrote:
>>> > wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>Unless the cellar is deep underground, cellars still will be warmer in
>>>>>summer and colder in winter.
>>>>
>>>>Surely you don't mean what you wrote.
>>>
>>>I was wondering about that myself. I also wonder why someone would
>>>insist on a chest freezer.
>>
>> I've always wondered that too -- or, more specifically, why anyone would even
>> consider a chest freezer.
>
>The cold doesn't leak out when you open the door.
>
>> That large flat area is such a tempting place to set
>> all kinds of crap on top of...
>
>And you think that's a bad thing? Invest in one of those nice sturdy chrome
>rolling shelf units -- when you need something in the freezer just roll it
>away.

That's just silly.

>If that won't fit around the freezer, hang shelves or cabinets above it.

They'd have to be mounted pretty high to allow clearance for the door.
Do you recommend climbing on top the freezer to get to the cabinets?
I'm not going to look up freezer specs but it doesn't sound like a
useful setup.

Lou

In article >, (Doug Miller) wrote:
>In article >, Lou Decruss
> > wrote:
>>On Tue, 01 Jun 2010 22:44:14 GMT, (Doug Miller)
>>wrote:
>>
>>>In article
>> >,
>> spamtrap1888 > wrote:
>>>
>>>>Unless the cellar is deep underground, cellars still will be warmer in
>>>>summer and colder in winter.
>>>
>>>Surely you don't mean what you wrote.
>>
>>I was wondering about that myself. I also wonder why someone would
>>insist on a chest freezer.
>
>I've always wondered that too -- or, more specifically, why anyone would even
>consider a chest freezer. That large flat area is such a tempting place to set
>all kinds of crap on top of...

When you take something out, its a place to work on food items.
It does consume more floor space.

greg

In article >, "Rod Speed" > wrote:
>Fake ID wrote
>> Mark Thorson > wrote
>>> john hamilton wrote
>
>>>> The Miela has this feature which is suppose to expel the air
>>>> inside, after the lid is closed. With less air trapped the theory
>>>> is that it will not need defrosting as often as normal.
>
>>> You mean there's a partial vacuum inside?
>>> Wouldn't that make plastic bags and
>>> unopened milk cartons burst?
>
>> Wouldn't the unopened milk cartons burst anyway once the milk froze?
>
>Nope, its only glass containers that burst when the contents freeze.


If a vacuum freezer would have a leak, it would suck in more moisture.

On Wed, 02 Jun 2010 13:46:40 GMT, (GregS)
wrote:

>In article >, Lou Decruss > wrote:
>>On Tue, 01 Jun 2010 22:44:14 GMT, (Doug Miller)
>>wrote:
>>
>>>In article
>> >,
>> spamtrap1888 > wrote:
>>>
>>>>Unless the cellar is deep underground, cellars still will be warmer in
>>>>summer and colder in winter.
>>>
>>>Surely you don't mean what you wrote.
>>
>>I was wondering about that myself. I also wonder why someone would
>>insist on a chest freezer.
>
>MORE efficient.

I'll agree only with that.

>All I know are not self defrosting, more
>efficiency, and less drying out of food. Also flavor transfer.

LOL. There's no difference between them. And you forgot to mention
all the mystery items lost in the bottom up the chest.

Lou

In article >, (GregS) wrote:
>In article >, Lou Decruss
> > wrote:
>>On Tue, 01 Jun 2010 22:44:14 GMT, (Doug Miller)
>>wrote:
>>
>>>In article
>> >,
>> spamtrap1888 > wrote:
>>>
>>>>Unless the cellar is deep underground, cellars still will be warmer in
>>>>summer and colder in winter.
>>>
>>>Surely you don't mean what you wrote.
>>
>>I was wondering about that myself. I also wonder why someone would
>>insist on a chest freezer.
>
>MORE efficient. All I know are not self defrosting, more
>efficiency, and less drying out of food. Also flavor transfer.
>
>greg

I have always complained about self defrosting, fan driven stuff.
And its always seems to be in the defrost mode when I
am putting warmer food in from the store. it should never go
on defrost during wakeing hours. the time should be able to
be set by the user. Like 3 AM for instance.
I have measure temps of the 45 minuite defrost cycle
and they rise pretty high, and ice cream is always softer
after this occurs. If your kids are going in and out on a warm day during
a defrost cycle, you beter watch out.


greg

"Janet Baraclough" > wrote in message
...
> The message >
> from Lou Decruss > contains these words:
>
>> On Tue, 1 Jun 2010 18:26:53 +0100, Janet Baraclough
>> > wrote:
>
>
>> > My current (upright) freezer is frost free. That means there is zero
>> >ice build up and I never, ever have to defrost it.
>> > I'd *strongly* recommend getting a frost-free model .
>
>> Really, Really! bad advice. The frost free part of our combo unit
>> has stuff we're going to use in a week or so and want to keep handy.
>> Everything else goes in the real freezer with no intermittent heat
>> blasting on it.
>
> ? Mine stores stuff for 6 + months; and is only opened once a day
> max, to get out whatever needs to be defrosted.
> I don't have to open all the drawers because the contents are organised.
> And, heat blasts are virtually unknown in Scotland :-)
>
> Janet


LOL I deleted all the silly cross-posted ****ing contests simply to say I
agree with you, Janet. There's absolutely no reason to have a chest-type
freezer when you can get one you don't have to defrost every few months. I
don't open my upright frost free freezer and stare into it, mesmerized. I
know what's in there and exactly where it is. I open the door and take it
out. Close the door. Done. I don't have to dig around to find what I
want. I have everything organized.

Jill

On Wed, 2 Jun 2010 10:10:47 +0100, Janet Baraclough
> wrote:

>The message >
>from Lou Decruss > contains these words:
>
>> On Tue, 1 Jun 2010 18:26:53 +0100, Janet Baraclough
>> > wrote:
>
>
>> > My current (upright) freezer is frost free. That means there is zero
>> >ice build up and I never, ever have to defrost it.
>> > I'd *strongly* recommend getting a frost-free model .
>
>> Really, Really! bad advice. The frost free part of our combo unit
>> has stuff we're going to use in a week or so and want to keep handy.
>> Everything else goes in the real freezer with no intermittent heat
>> blasting on it.
>
> ? Mine stores stuff for 6 + months; and is only opened once a day
>max, to get out whatever needs to be defrosted.
>I don't have to open all the drawers because the contents are organised.
>And, heat blasts are virtually unknown in Scotland :-)
>
> Janet

You must not have anyone else putting in and taking out of your
freezer. DH usually just puts what ever he has in his hands in the
closest spot to where he is standing. We have both a chest and an
upright and it is the same for both.

When we first got the chest freezer I had the foods sorted and knew
which section had what I was looking for. Now I keep gloves so that I
can go through the stuff to find what I am looking for.
--
Susan N.

"Moral indignation is in most cases two percent moral,
48 percent indignation, and 50 percent envy."
Vittorio De Sica, Italian movie director (1901-1974)

Doug Miller wrote
> Rod Speed > wrote
>> Fake ID wrote
>>> Mark Thorson > wrote
>>>> john hamilton wrote

>>>>> The Miela has this feature which is suppose to expel the
>>>>> air inside, after the lid is closed. With less air trapped the
>>>>> theory is that it will not need defrosting as often as normal.

>>>> You mean there's a partial vacuum inside?
>>>> Wouldn't that make plastic bags and
>>>> unopened milk cartons burst?

>>> Wouldn't the unopened milk cartons burst anyway once the milk froze?

>> Nope, its only glass containers that burst when the contents freeze.

> Wrong.

Nope, I do it quite a bit with milk, basically when defrosting the fridge.

My freezers are separate from the fridge.

GregS wrote
> Lou Decruss > wrote
>> (Doug Miller) wrote
>> spamtrap1888 > wrote

>>>> Unless the cellar is deep underground, cellars still will be warmer in summer and colder in winter.

>>> Surely you don't mean what you wrote.

>> I was wondering about that myself. I also wonder
>> why someone would insist on a chest freezer.

> MORE efficient.

Only trivially. The amount of air involved is trivial.

> All I know are not self defrosting,

Plenty of upright freezers are too.

> more efficiency,

Only marginally.

> and less drying out of food. Also flavor transfer.

Thats a myth.

Particularly if the freezer is in the kitchen and thats by
far the most convenient place to have it, a vertical freezer
is much more convenient to use and takes up less floor
space and is well worth the trivially lower efficence that
you get becaue the air falls out when you open the door.

GregS wrote
> (Doug Miller) wrote
>> Lou Decruss > wrote
>>> (Doug Miller) wrote
>>> spamtrap1888 > wrote:

>>>>> Unless the cellar is deep underground, cellars still
>>>>> will be warmer in summer and colder in winter.

>>>> Surely you don't mean what you wrote.

>>> I was wondering about that myself. I also wonder
>>> why someone would insist on a chest freezer.

>> I've always wondered that too -- or, more specifically, why
>> anyone would even consider a chest freezer. That large flat
>> area is such a tempting place to set all kinds of crap on top of...

> When you take something out, its a place to work on food items.

I prefer to have adequate bench space in the kitchen for that.

> It does consume more floor space.

So in practice that isnt likely to be much use even if you are very short of bench space.

GregS wrote
> Rod Speed > wrote
>> Fake ID wrote
>>> Mark Thorson > wrote
>>>> john hamilton wrote

>>>>> The Miela has this feature which is suppose to expel the air
>>>>> inside, after the lid is closed. With less air trapped the theory
>>>>> is that it will not need defrosting as often as normal.

>>>> You mean there's a partial vacuum inside?
>>>> Wouldn't that make plastic bags and
>>>> unopened milk cartons burst?

>>> Wouldn't the unopened milk cartons burst anyway once the milk froze?

>> Nope, its only glass containers that burst when the contents freeze.

> If a vacuum freezer would have a leak, it would suck in more moisture.

Yes, but its easy to ensure that it doesnt leak.

I doubt its a vacuum freezer anyway, I bet the sales spiel mangles what it actually does.

In article >, "Rod Speed" > wrote:
>Doug Miller wrote
>> Rod Speed > wrote
>>> Fake ID wrote
>>>> Mark Thorson > wrote
>>>>> john hamilton wrote
>
>>>>>> The Miela has this feature which is suppose to expel the
>>>>>> air inside, after the lid is closed. With less air trapped the
>>>>>> theory is that it will not need defrosting as often as normal.
>
>>>>> You mean there's a partial vacuum inside?
>>>>> Wouldn't that make plastic bags and
>>>>> unopened milk cartons burst?
>
>>>> Wouldn't the unopened milk cartons burst anyway once the milk froze?
>
>>> Nope, its only glass containers that burst when the contents freeze.
>
>> Wrong.
>
>Nope, I do it quite a bit with milk, basically when defrosting the fridge.

Fill a cardboard milk carton with water, freeze it, and see what happens.
According to you, it won't burst. But you're wrong.

Leave a six-pack of beer in your car trunk overnight in the middle of the
winter. According to you, the cans won't burst. But you're wrong.

Doug Miller wrote
> Rod Speed > wrote
>> Doug Miller wrote
>>> Rod Speed > wrote
>>>> Fake ID wrote
>>>>> Mark Thorson > wrote
>>>>>> john hamilton wrote

>>>>>>> The Miela has this feature which is suppose to expel the
>>>>>>> air inside, after the lid is closed. With less air trapped the
>>>>>>> theory is that it will not need defrosting as often as normal.

>>>>>> You mean there's a partial vacuum inside?
>>>>>> Wouldn't that make plastic bags and
>>>>>> unopened milk cartons burst?

>>>>> Wouldn't the unopened milk cartons burst anyway once the milk froze?

>>>> Nope, its only glass containers that burst when the contents freeze.

>>> Wrong.

>> Nope, I do it quite a bit with milk, basically when defrosting the fridge.

> Fill a cardboard milk carton with water, freeze it, and see what happens.

Like I said, I did that quite a bit when defrosting the fridge, not one ever burst.

> According to you, it won't burst. But you're wrong.

Nope, not one ever burst.

> Leave a six-pack of beer in your car trunk overnight in the middle of
> the winter. According to you, the cans won't burst. But you're wrong.

Nope, not one has ever burst here, and dont when you put them in the freezer either.

The only ones that have ever burst have been in glass containers, what we call stubbys.

john hamilton wrote:
> We need to buy a freezer. The *chest* type is what we want with the
> lid on the top.
>
> 'Which' magazine recommends the Miele GT263 and for a hundred pounds
> less the Zanussi ZFC 321 which comes in at £260.
>
> The Miela has this feature which is suppose to expel the air inside,
> after the lid is closed.

They actually say it expels the FROST inside, not the air.

> With less air trapped the theory is that it
> will not need defrosting as often as normal.
>
> Knowing that its just not easy to get an airtight seal, the suspicion
> is that it might draw the air out but; it will creep back in again
> anyway.
> Would anyone with experience of the Miele freezer know if its worth
> paying the extra £100 for this 'de-frost' feature. In other words
> does it work as a means of cutting out defrosting? Thanks for any
> advice.

In article >, "Rod Speed" > wrote:
>GregS wrote
>> Lou Decruss > wrote
>>> (Doug Miller) wrote
>>> spamtrap1888 > wrote
>
>>>>> Unless the cellar is deep underground, cellars still will be warmer in
> summer and colder in winter.
>
>>>> Surely you don't mean what you wrote.
>
>>> I was wondering about that myself. I also wonder
>>> why someone would insist on a chest freezer.
>
>> MORE efficient.
>
>Only trivially. The amount of air involved is trivial.

Nearly all the air drops out of an upright. The thing is, air
has little mass. Its the foods mass which stores the absence
of heat. But, if you keep opening the door, it matters.

>> All I know are not self defrosting,
>
>Plenty of upright freezers are too.
>
>> more efficiency,.
>Thats a myth.

Wrong.
The circulation fan is the main cause.
I know by use. The old refridgerators have less effect
on partially closed containers. Its hard to seal a lot of them.
I think it may have somthing to do with the ziploc bags
in my freezer expanding. They all fill up with air over time, and I
keep letting the air out. IS THIS MAGIC ??
Most of what i say about the refridgerator/freezer subject is from direct experiance.

>Particularly if the freezer is in the kitchen and thats by
>far the most convenient place to have it, a vertical freezer
>is much more convenient to use and takes up less floor
>space and is well worth the trivially lower efficence that
>you get becaue the air falls out when you open the door.

The ideal system is a separate freezer and fridge in the kitchen,
and also a walk in pantry.
One TV show, Chef at Home, has these features with an otherwise normal
looking medium sized kitchen. Nice. I wish. At least I have 2 microwaves and
two turbo ovens and a regular oven, there.

GregS wrote
> Rod Speed > wrote
>> GregS wrote
>>> Lou Decruss > wrote
>>>> (Doug Miller) wrote
>>>> spamtrap1888 > wrote

>>>>>> Unless the cellar is deep underground, cellars still will be warmer in

>> summer and colder in winter.

>>>>> Surely you don't mean what you wrote.

>>>> I was wondering about that myself. I also wonder
>>>> why someone would insist on a chest freezer.

>>> MORE efficient.

>> Only trivially. The amount of air involved is trivial.

> Nearly all the air drops out of an upright.

Yes, but thats very little mass, even with an empty freezer.

> The thing is, air has little mass. Its the foods mass which stores
> the absence of heat. But, if you keep opening the door, it matters.

Not really, because even with say 10 door openings, the mass of
air thats lost is trivial compared with the mass of whats in the freezer.

>>> All I know are not self defrosting,

>> Plenty of upright freezers are too.

>>> more efficiency,.

>> Thats a myth.

> Wrong.

Nope.

> The circulation fan is the main cause.

There isnt necessarily any circulation fan at all. None
of my upright freezers have any circulation fan at all.

And even with a fan, that uses very little energy.

> I know by use.

You clearly dont.

> The old refridgerators have less effect on partially closed containers.

Thats just the circulation of the air effect.

Plenty of upright freezers have no circulation fan, none of mine have one.

> Its hard to seal a lot of them.

Its completely trivial to seal them all.

> I think it may have somthing to do with the ziploc bags
> in my freezer expanding. They all fill up with air over time,

Mine dont. I put the meat in the bags when the meat is wet
and the meat sticks to the plastic and they dont expand.

> and I keep letting the air out. IS THIS MAGIC ??

Nope, just evidence that a ziplock isnt a perfect seal.

There are alternatives to ziplock bags.

> Most of what i say about the refridgerator/freezer subject is from direct experiance.

But you dont understand the basics, or even that plenty of upright
freezers have no fans or self defrost either. None of mine have either.

>> Particularly if the freezer is in the kitchen and thats by
>> far the most convenient place to have it, a vertical freezer
>> is much more convenient to use and takes up less floor
>> space and is well worth the trivially lower efficence that
>> you get becaue the air falls out when you open the door.

> The ideal system is a separate freezer and fridge in the kitchen,

Yes, that is what I have, but separate doors isnt that much worse
and has some advantages efficiency wise, two less external surfaces.

> and also a walk in pantry.

I prefer a different approach myself, one wall covered with shelves.

Even very large pull out wheeled shelves a bit like books in a bookshelf has some advantages too.

> One TV show, Chef at Home, has these features with an otherwise normal looking medium sized kitchen. Nice.

I dont care what it looks like, what I care about is how well it works.

> I wish. At least I have 2 microwaves and
> two turbo ovens and a regular oven, there.

Sounds like overkill.

jmcquown wrote:
> "Janet Baraclough" > wrote in message
> ...
>> The message >
>> from Lou Decruss > contains these words:
>>
>>> On Tue, 1 Jun 2010 18:26:53 +0100, Janet Baraclough
>>> > wrote:
>>
>>
>>> > My current (upright) freezer is frost free. That means there is
>>> zero
>>> >ice build up and I never, ever have to defrost it.
>>> > I'd *strongly* recommend getting a frost-free model .
>>
>>> Really, Really! bad advice. The frost free part of our combo unit
>>> has stuff we're going to use in a week or so and want to keep handy.
>>> Everything else goes in the real freezer with no intermittent heat
>>> blasting on it.
>>
>> ? Mine stores stuff for 6 + months; and is only opened once a day
>> max, to get out whatever needs to be defrosted.
>> I don't have to open all the drawers because the contents are organised.
>> And, heat blasts are virtually unknown in Scotland :-)
>>
>> Janet
>
>
> LOL I deleted all the silly cross-posted ****ing contests simply to
> say I agree with you, Janet. There's absolutely no reason to have a
> chest-type freezer when you can get one you don't have to defrost
> every few months. I don't open my upright frost free freezer and
> stare into it, mesmerized. I know what's in there and exactly where
> it is. I open the door and take it out. Close the door. Done. I
> don't have to dig around to find what I want. I have everything
> organized.
>
> Jill
I just retired my chest freezer and I never had to defrost it. It's in
a humid garage in FL. The new upright is a lot nicer. Everything is
laid out and easy to find. There is even a light inside so I don't have
to turn on the garage light after dark. It is also frost-free. When
you open the door, the compressor shuts off (if it was already running)
and when you close the door you can hear air being purged from the
freezer. Nice!