Is this just a marketing ploy by Kikkoman? Seems to me that you get umami
when you have the right balance of sweet, sour, salty, bitter (and
spicy/hot) for the dish you're preparing.

Spicy/hot. Maybe that should be the fifth flavor. Wide range of
intensities, durations and location of effects (different parts of the
mouth, tongue, throat), sweat (face, brow, top or back of head, back).

Please educate me. Thanks.

--
Nick, KI6VAV. Support severely wounded and disabled Veterans and their
families: https://www.woundedwarriorproject.org/ Thank a Veteran!
Support Our Troops: http://anymarine.com/ You are not forgotten.
Thanks ! ! ~Semper Fi~ USMC 1365061

On 23 Nov 2009 07:16:42 GMT, Nick Cramer wrote:

> Is this just a marketing ploy by Kikkoman? Seems to me that you get umami
> when you have the right balance of sweet, sour, salty, bitter (and
> spicy/hot) for the dish you're preparing.
>
> Spicy/hot. Maybe that should be the fifth flavor. Wide range of
> intensities, durations and location of effects (different parts of the
> mouth, tongue, throat), sweat (face, brow, top or back of head, back).
>
> Please educate me. Thanks.

there's some argument, but i think there's pretty widespread agreement it's
a fifth taste (complete with separate taste receptors on the tongue),
'meaty' or 'savory.' wikipedia has a fairly good run-down:

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umami>

it's kinda why monosodium glutamate pops up in many foods where they don't
want to spend the money on actual meat.

i would think the 'right balance' would be more along the lines of
'manifold flavor' you sometimes hear about when discussing szechuan food
(though not exactly 'balance' because you tend to taste first one and then
the other).

your pal,
blake

Nick Cramer wrote:
> Is this just a marketing ploy by Kikkoman? Seems to me that you get umami
> when you have the right balance of sweet, sour, salty, bitter (and
> spicy/hot) for the dish you're preparing.
>
> Spicy/hot. Maybe that should be the fifth flavor. Wide range of
> intensities, durations and location of effects (different parts of the
> mouth, tongue, throat), sweat (face, brow, top or back of head, back).
>
> Please educate me. Thanks.
>
I just saw an Alton Brown Good Eats a couple weeks ago, and he called BS
on 'umami' too.

Nick Cramer wrote:
> Is this just a marketing ploy by Kikkoman? Seems to me that you get umami
> when you have the right balance of sweet, sour, salty, bitter (and
> spicy/hot) for the dish you're preparing.
>
> Spicy/hot. Maybe that should be the fifth flavor. Wide range of
> intensities, durations and location of effects (different parts of the
> mouth, tongue, throat), sweat (face, brow, top or back of head, back).
>
> Please educate me. Thanks.
>

I actually heard the word used on the radio yesterday, on an NPR
pre-Thanksgiving food discussion. Its not just a marketing ploy, though.

You find umami in msg, of course, but also mushrooms, seaweed, bacon,
cheeses, soy sauce, and I forget what else. Adding something with it to
any dish will improve it.

Ian

"Nunya Bidnits" > wrote:
> [ . . . ]
> I often tell people, especially when the conversation is about barbecue
> or asian cooking, and especially pertaining to sauces, that I am a savory
> guy, not a sweet guy. Maybe that means I'm an umami guy. ;-)

In the past, I been told that I am an unsavory guy, not a sweet guy. Maybe
that means I'm a Yo' Mama guy. LMAO

--
Nick, KI6VAV. Support severely wounded and disabled Veterans and their
families: https://www.woundedwarriorproject.org/ Thank a Veteran!
Support Our Troops: http://anymarine.com/ You are not forgotten.
Thanks ! ! ~Semper Fi~ USMC 1365061

On Mon, 7 Dec 2009 13:36:29 -0600, Nunya Bidnits wrote:

> Nick Cramer said:
>> Is this just a marketing ploy by Kikkoman? Seems to me that you get
>> umami when you have the right balance of sweet, sour, salty, bitter
>> (and spicy/hot) for the dish you're preparing.
>>
>> Spicy/hot. Maybe that should be the fifth flavor. Wide range of
>> intensities, durations and location of effects (different parts of the
>> mouth, tongue, throat), sweat (face, brow, top or back of head, back).
>>
>> Please educate me. Thanks.
>
> I agree on spicy as a fifth flavor.
>
> As far as umami, given the various foods purported to have that flavor, it's
> not making a lot of sense, unless it's just another word for savory.
>
> One of the cooking competition shows, either Top Chef or Next Iron Chef, I
> don't recall, had a competition where the contestants had to incorporate
> umami, and they had some renowned asian chef who I had never heard of
> (that's doesn't mean much) judging their entries, including whether or not
> and how well they had made use of "umami."
>
> I often tell people, especially when the conversation is about barbecue or
> asian cooking, and especially pertaining to sauces, that I am a savory guy,
> not a sweet guy. Maybe that means I'm an umami guy. ;-)
>
> MartyB in KC

i'll repeat myself and point you to *wikipedia*:

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umami>

so yeah, savory, but there seem to be distinct receptors on the tongue for
it, just like salty, sweet, bitter and sour.

your pal,
blake

> blake murphy > wrote:
>>On Mon, 7 Dec 2009 13:36:29 -0600, Nunya Bidnits wrote:
>
>> Nick Cramer said:
>>> Is this just a marketing ploy by Kikkoman? Seems to me that you get
>>> umami when you have the right balance of sweet, sour, salty, bitter
>>> (and spicy/hot) for the dish you're preparing.
>>>
>>> Spicy/hot. Maybe that should be the fifth flavor. Wide range of
>>> intensities, durations and location of effects (different parts of the
>>> mouth, tongue, throat), sweat (face, brow, top or back of head, back).
>>>
>>> Please educate me. Thanks.
>>
>> I agree on spicy as a fifth flavor.
>>
>> As far as umami, given the various foods purported to have that flavor, it's
>> not making a lot of sense, unless it's just another word for savory.
>>
>> One of the cooking competition shows, either Top Chef or Next Iron Chef, I
>> don't recall, had a competition where the contestants had to incorporate
>> umami, and they had some renowned asian chef who I had never heard of
>> (that's doesn't mean much) judging their entries, including whether or not
>> and how well they had made use of "umami."
>>
>> I often tell people, especially when the conversation is about barbecue or
>> asian cooking, and especially pertaining to sauces, that I am a savory guy,
>> not a sweet guy. Maybe that means I'm an umami guy. ;-)
>>
>> MartyB in KC
>
>i'll repeat myself and point you to *wikipedia*:
>
><http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umami>
>
>so yeah, savory, but there seem to be distinct receptors on the tongue for
>it, just like salty, sweet, bitter and sour.
>
>your pal,
>blake

Right, it's taste receptor issue, not a 5th "flavor". It's a matter
of biology, not opinion. We don't get to vote.

> "Nunya Bidnits" > wrote:
>>Frawley said:
>>> blake murphy > wrote:
>>>> On Mon, 7 Dec 2009 13:36:29 -0600, Nunya Bidnits wrote:
>>>
>>>> Nick Cramer said:
>>>>> Is this just a marketing ploy by Kikkoman? Seems to me that you get
>>>>> umami when you have the right balance of sweet, sour, salty, bitter
>>>>> (and spicy/hot) for the dish you're preparing.
>>>>>
>>>>> Spicy/hot. Maybe that should be the fifth flavor. Wide range of
>>>>> intensities, durations and location of effects (different parts of
>>>>> the mouth, tongue, throat), sweat (face, brow, top or back of
>>>>> head, back).
>>>>>
>>>>> Please educate me. Thanks.
>>>>
>>>> I agree on spicy as a fifth flavor.
>>>>
>>>> As far as umami, given the various foods purported to have that
>>>> flavor, it's not making a lot of sense, unless it's just another
>>>> word for savory.
>>>>
>>>> One of the cooking competition shows, either Top Chef or Next Iron
>>>> Chef, I don't recall, had a competition where the contestants had
>>>> to incorporate umami, and they had some renowned asian chef who I
>>>> had never heard of (that's doesn't mean much) judging their
>>>> entries, including whether or not and how well they had made use of
>>>> "umami."
>>>>
>>>> I often tell people, especially when the conversation is about
>>>> barbecue or asian cooking, and especially pertaining to sauces,
>>>> that I am a savory guy, not a sweet guy. Maybe that means I'm an
>>>> umami guy. ;-)
>>>>
>>>> MartyB in KC
>>>
>>> i'll repeat myself and point you to *wikipedia*:
>>>
>>> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umami>
>>>
>>> so yeah, savory, but there seem to be distinct receptors on the
>>> tongue for it, just like salty, sweet, bitter and sour.
>>>
>>> your pal,
>>> blake
>>
>> Right, it's taste receptor issue, not a 5th "flavor". It's a matter
>> of biology, not opinion. We don't get to vote.
>
>That's all nice, but:
>
>Wikipedia is not a scientifically accredited source.
>
>It may or may not be a matter of biology, but what we call it, whatever it
>is, can vary, and the term umami seems to me to be talking about the exact
>same taste sensation which I call savory.
>
>I'm not aware of research which supports this additional set of taste
>receptors which are the source for defining a fifth element of flavor. I'd
>be interested to read it though if it exists.
>
>The term umami is the beneficiary of a big time consumer marketing push by
>Kikkoman. Whether it's popularity in the west is just a matter of
>terminology or if it's something we stupid westerners have suddenly just
>discovered on our taste buds after all these millenia is not clear to me,
>but I rather doubt it has utterly escaped definition or awareness up to now,
>and I remain dubious that it's genuinely a biological fact that there exists
>some other set of taste receptors we idiot westerners have failed to grasp.
>
>For all I know, savory and umami are synonymous, one an eastern language
>term, the other western.
>
>One thing for sure is that I'll need to see more than Wiki articles,
>Kikkoman ads, and TV reality cooking competition shows that ride the
>popularity of the term before I'll consider the matter of a fifth flavor
>element settled in my mind. I've always thought of the concept of savory
>flavor as a combination of the four elements, and if it's not, in spite of
>having a relatively refined palate, I simply do not taste some particular
>unique element which exists specifically and uniquely in the foods where it
>is claimed to be present, so that it might be recognizable in the same way
>sour or sweet is recognizable in various degrees.
>
>MartyB in KC

Hard to tell who you're arguing with or against here, but that's a
whale of an essay!

On Nov 25, 4:48*pm, Frank Mancuso > wrote:
> Nick Cramer wrote:
> > Is this just a marketing ploy by Kikkoman? Seems to me that you get umami
> > when you have the right balance of sweet, sour, salty, bitter (and
> > spicy/hot) for the dish you're preparing.
>
> > Spicy/hot. Maybe that should be the fifth flavor. Wide range of
> > intensities, durations and location of effects (different parts of the
> > mouth, tongue, throat), sweat (face, brow, top or back of head, back).
>
> > Please educate me. Thanks.
>
> I just saw an Alton Brown Good Eats a couple weeks ago, and he called BS
> on 'umami' too.

Hmm, on the recent "Next Iron Chef" series, he was a big proponent of
umami.

On Wed, 09 Dec 2009 21:32:07 -0600, Frawley wrote:

>> blake murphy > wrote:
>>>On Mon, 7 Dec 2009 13:36:29 -0600, Nunya Bidnits wrote:
>>
>>> Nick Cramer said:
>>>> Is this just a marketing ploy by Kikkoman? Seems to me that you get
>>>> umami when you have the right balance of sweet, sour, salty, bitter
>>>> (and spicy/hot) for the dish you're preparing.
>>>>
>>>> Spicy/hot. Maybe that should be the fifth flavor. Wide range of
>>>> intensities, durations and location of effects (different parts of the
>>>> mouth, tongue, throat), sweat (face, brow, top or back of head, back).
>>>>
>>>> Please educate me. Thanks.
>>>
>>> I agree on spicy as a fifth flavor.
>>>
>>> As far as umami, given the various foods purported to have that flavor, it's
>>> not making a lot of sense, unless it's just another word for savory.
>>>
>>> One of the cooking competition shows, either Top Chef or Next Iron Chef, I
>>> don't recall, had a competition where the contestants had to incorporate
>>> umami, and they had some renowned asian chef who I had never heard of
>>> (that's doesn't mean much) judging their entries, including whether or not
>>> and how well they had made use of "umami."
>>>
>>> I often tell people, especially when the conversation is about barbecue or
>>> asian cooking, and especially pertaining to sauces, that I am a savory guy,
>>> not a sweet guy. Maybe that means I'm an umami guy. ;-)
>>>
>>> MartyB in KC
>>
>>i'll repeat myself and point you to *wikipedia*:
>>
>><http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umami>
>>
>>so yeah, savory, but there seem to be distinct receptors on the tongue for
>>it, just like salty, sweet, bitter and sour.
>>
>>your pal,
>>blake
>
> Right, it's taste receptor issue, not a 5th "flavor". It's a matter
> of biology, not opinion. We don't get to vote.

well, there are taste receptors *specific* to the other four flavors, so i
would argue that the existence of specific receptors for umami indicates a
fifth 'taste.'

your pal,
blake

On Wed, 9 Dec 2009 21:54:10 -0600, Nunya Bidnits wrote:

> Frawley said:
>>> blake murphy > wrote:
>>>> On Mon, 7 Dec 2009 13:36:29 -0600, Nunya Bidnits wrote:
>>>
>>>> Nick Cramer said:
>>>>> Is this just a marketing ploy by Kikkoman? Seems to me that you get
>>>>> umami when you have the right balance of sweet, sour, salty, bitter
>>>>> (and spicy/hot) for the dish you're preparing.
>>>>>
>>>>> Spicy/hot. Maybe that should be the fifth flavor. Wide range of
>>>>> intensities, durations and location of effects (different parts of
>>>>> the mouth, tongue, throat), sweat (face, brow, top or back of
>>>>> head, back).
>>>>>
>>>>> Please educate me. Thanks.
>>>>
>>>> I agree on spicy as a fifth flavor.
>>>>
>>>> As far as umami, given the various foods purported to have that
>>>> flavor, it's not making a lot of sense, unless it's just another
>>>> word for savory.
>>>>
>>>> One of the cooking competition shows, either Top Chef or Next Iron
>>>> Chef, I don't recall, had a competition where the contestants had
>>>> to incorporate umami, and they had some renowned asian chef who I
>>>> had never heard of (that's doesn't mean much) judging their
>>>> entries, including whether or not and how well they had made use of
>>>> "umami."
>>>>
>>>> I often tell people, especially when the conversation is about
>>>> barbecue or asian cooking, and especially pertaining to sauces,
>>>> that I am a savory guy, not a sweet guy. Maybe that means I'm an
>>>> umami guy. ;-)
>>>>
>>>> MartyB in KC
>>>
>>> i'll repeat myself and point you to *wikipedia*:
>>>
>>> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umami>
>>>
>>> so yeah, savory, but there seem to be distinct receptors on the
>>> tongue for it, just like salty, sweet, bitter and sour.
>>>
>>> your pal,
>>> blake
>>
>> Right, it's taste receptor issue, not a 5th "flavor". It's a matter
>> of biology, not opinion. We don't get to vote.
>
> That's all nice, but:
>
> Wikipedia is not a scientifically accredited source.

i understand that argument, but in this case there are copious
scientifically accredited references:

Notes

1. ^ Sanseido Japanese-English Dictionary published by Sanseido, Co.
Ltd., Tokyo, Japan
2. ^ a b Chandrashekar J, Hoon MA, Ryba NJ, Zuker CS (November 2006).
"The receptors and cells for mammalian taste". Nature 444 (7117): 288¡V94.
doi:10.1038/nature05401. PMID 17108952.
3. ^ a b Ikeda K (November 2002). "New seasonings". Chem. Senses 27 (9):
847¡V9. doi:10.1093/chemse/27.9.847. PMID 12438213.
http://chemse.oxfordjournals.org/cgi...&pmid=12438213.
(partial translation of Ikeda, Kikunae (1909). "New Seasonings[japan.]".
Journal of the Chemical Society of Tokyo 30: 820¡V836. )
4. ^ Yasuo T, Kusuhara Y, Yasumatsu K, Ninomiya Y (October 2008).
"Multiple receptor systems for glutamate detection in the taste organ"
([dead link]). Biol. PharBull. 31 (10): 1833¡V7.
# doi:10.1248/bpb.31.1833. PMID 18827337.
http://joi.jlc.jst.go.jp/JST.JSTAGE/...33?from=PubMed.
# ^ Moskin, Julia (5 March 2008). "Yes, MSG, the Secret Behind the Savor".
New York Times. http://nytimes.com/2008/03/05/dining/05glute.html.
Retrieved 9 August 2008.
# ^ Nelson G, Chandrashekar J, Hoon MA, et al. (2002). "An amino-acid taste
receptor". Nature 416 (6877): 199¡V202. doi:10.1038/nature726. PMID
11894099.
# ^ Roper, SD (2007 August). "Signal transduction and information
processing in mammalian taste buds". Pflugers Arch 454 (5): 759¡V76.
doi:10.1007/s00424-007-0247-x. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17468883.
# ^ Daniels, S (February 18, 2008). "Scientists develop new umami taste
enhancers". FoodNavigator.com-Europe.
http://foodnfoodnavigator.com/news/n...-umami-msg-gmp.
# ^ Rolls, ET (2000 April). "The representation of umami taste in the taste
cortex". J Nutr 130 (4S Suppl): 960S¡V5S.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10736361.

at least some of which appear to be refereed journals.

>
> It may or may not be a matter of biology, but what we call it, whatever it
> is, can vary, and the term umami seems to me to be talking about the exact
> same taste sensation which I call savory.
>
> I'm not aware of research which supports this additional set of taste
> receptors which are the source for defining a fifth element of flavor. I'd
> be interested to read it though if it exists.

see above.

>
> The term umami is the beneficiary of a big time consumer marketing push by
> Kikkoman. Whether it's popularity in the west is just a matter of
> terminology or if it's something we stupid westerners have suddenly just
> discovered on our taste buds after all these millenia is not clear to me,
> but I rather doubt it has utterly escaped definition or awareness up to now,
> and I remain dubious that it's genuinely a biological fact that there exists
> some other set of taste receptors we idiot westerners have failed to grasp.

maybe it's been hyped by kikkoman and others, but that doesn't mean it's
not true.

your pal,
blake