B.Server <> wrote in :

> On 28 Jul 2003 07:46:20 -0700, (Sudy)
> wrote:
>
>>Hi
>>
>>I've been cooking lamb curry but find that it does not taste much like
>>the dish as prepared in South Indian homes.

[snip]

>>What ingredients do South Indians
>>use that distinguish their curries from what I have?

Most South Indian dishes rely on one or more of these ingredients:

Tamarind
Black mustard seeds
Coconut milk
Pulses or lentils (urad dal is quite popular)
Rice or rice flour or some type of pulse or lentil flour
Curry (kari) leaves
Cilantro for garnish
Hot red chilli powder
Chillies, fresh or dried

Depending on the region, there are additional differences. For example,
Goan cooks prefer vinegar to tamarind to add sour/tart notes to a dish.


>>Does anyone mind sharing a recipe for a South Indian lamb curry?

Bit late, I suppose, but I only just found this NG. Note that this recipe
uses shallots. Traditionally, one would use the small red onions found in
Asia, which are more flavorful and pungent. However, I cannot find that
type of onion in the U.S., so I substitute shallots, which are closer to
the required flavor.


Uppakari


4 Tbsp oil
2 tsp mustard seeds (whole brown or black)
About 10 whole dried red chillies
1/2 tsp urad dal or yellow split peas
1.25 cups thinly slivered shallots
10 medium garlic cloves, slivered
About 20 fresh curry leaves
2 tsp finely grated ginger
1.25 cups (12 oz) tomatoes, chopped
1 lb boneless lamb shoulder, cubed
1/4 tsp ground turmeric
salt to taste

Heat oil over medium high heat. Add mustard seeds and cover. When you hear
the seeds pop, uncover the pan, add urad dal and chillies, and stir. (Make
sure your kitchen is well-ventilated and the stove fan turned on, as the
seeds make a lot of smoke when they fry.)

When the urad dal reddens, add shallots, garlic, curry leaves, and fry,
stirring till the shallots are golden-brown. Add ginger and stir.

Add the lamb and stir till sealed on all sides. Add tomatoes and cook till
softened. Add turmeric and salt and mix well.
Add 2 cups water and bring to the boil. Cover, reduce heat to low, and cook
until tender (approximately 1 hour).

Remove lid, raise the heat to high, and cook till the liquid is reduced to
a thick and clingy sauce.

Serves 4.

This recipe yields a very very tasty, authentic and hot spicy curry. If you
do not want that much heat, reduce the number of dried red chillies
accordingly.


> Given the great preponderance of practising vegetarians in the S.
> Indian popularion

Um ... it depends on the region and also on the caste or ethnic subgroup.
The tribals of Andhra Pradesh, for example, are not vegetarian. Goans and
Malayalis also are noted for their non-vegetarian cuisine.

> and the lack of sheep raising,

People in India tend to raise goats rather than sheep. So perhaps "Mutton
curry" rather than "lamb curry" would be appropriate.

> I would be surprized
> to find a "South Indian lamb curry".

South Indians make a wide variety of excellent mutton curries. If you live
in a country where you cannot find mutton, you can substitute lamb,
although you should adjust your seasonings accordingly. Lamb is also more
tender than mutton and less flavoursome, so cooking times must also be
adjusted.

> You might want to try north or
> northwest where the Muslim population is larger.
>
> FWIW, most "sauces" in S. India seem to contain "curry" or "kari"
> leaves. (the leaves of Murraya koenigii) Personally, I've never seen
> them in a dish that contained meat, but they are a characteristic
> flavor.

???? I have. Kari leaves are a signature of South Indian cooking.



> If you like lamb, try this one.

> Royal Braised Lamb with Fragrant Spices
> (Shahi Korma)


Interesting recipe. Where did you get it?

For anyone planning to use this recipe, please do *not* use sour cream. The
yoghurt should add enough sourness for a good Shahi Korma. You can
substitute a "less-hot" chilli powder for the paprika. I personally find
paprika does not go well with Indian spices. If you cannot find "black
cumin," ask for kalonji, kalanji, or kala jira, which is also known as
"wild onion seed" in some parts of the world.

Do *not* add the garam masala to the dish until you are almost finished
cooking. A true garam masala is never cooked, just lightly heated through.
I never use nonstick pans to caramelize onions. They seem to do better in
regular pans. There are also health issues involved in using nonstick pans.

Also, what is a Mughal garam masala? Could anyone please post a recipe? I
have never heard of "Mughal garam masala" before.


> For 8.
>
> ½ Cup usli ghee or light vegetable oil
> 1 ½ Cups Onions, finely sliced
> 1 Tbsp Garlic, finely chopped
> 1 ½ Tbsp Ginger, finely chopped
> 2 tsp Black cumin (or 1 ½ tsp ground cumin)
> 1 ½ tsp Mace, ground
> ¾ tsp Cinnamon, ground
> 1 tsp Mughal garam masala
> ½ tsp Chili, ground (or to taste)
> 1 tsp Paprika
> 3 lbs Lamb, lean, bone-free, cut into 1 ½ in cubes
> 1 Cup Yogurt, plain
> 1 Cup Sour cream or heavy cream
> 1 Tbsp Kosher salt
> milk as needed.
>
> 1. Heat the ghee in a large heavy-bottomed pan, preferably a non-stick
> type, and add onions. Over medium-high heat, fry the onions until
> they turn caramel brown (about 15 minutes), stirring constantly to
> prevent burning. (See directions for Brown-frying Onions p. 71).
> 2. Add garlic and ginger, and cook for an additional 2 minutes. Add
> cumin, mace, cinnamon, Mughal garam masala, red pepper, and paprika,
> and stir rapidly for a moment or two to distribute the spices into the
> fried onions.
> 3. Dry meat pieces thoroughly on paper towels. Increase heat to high,
> add meat pieces, and brown them on all sides evenly, turning and
> tossing them rapidly (about 5 minutes). Add ½ cup yogurt, ½ cup sour
> or heavy cream, and salt, and bring to a boil. Reduce heat, and
> simmer the meat, covered, until very tender (about 2 hours). The meat
> should be checked and stirred frequently during cooking to keep the
> sauce from sticking and burning. If the sauce evaporates too fast
> while cooking, add a little milk, When the korma is fully cooked, it
> should look quite dry, with just enough gravy to coat the meat pieces.
> Stir in the remaining yogurt and cream, and turn off heat.
>
> Note: Because the korma is practically sauceless, a considerable
> amount of fat usually separates and floats on the surface. This is
> characteristic of korma dishes. The dishes are traditionally served
> with the fat. For various reasons, however, I prefer to degrease the
> dish slightly, leaving just enough fat to coat and glaze the gravy and
> meat pieces. The scooped-out fat may be used in preparing other
> dishes or frying onions for garnish.


sq

"mroo philpott-smythe" > wrote in message
...
> B.Server <> wrote in :
>
> > On 28 Jul 2003 07:46:20 -0700, (Sudy)
> > wrote:
> >
> >>Hi
> >>
> >>I've been cooking lamb curry but find that it does not taste much like
> >>the dish as prepared in South Indian homes.
>
> [snip]
>
> >>What ingredients do South Indians
> >>use that distinguish their curries from what I have?
>
> Most South Indian dishes rely on one or more of these ingredients:
>
> Tamarind
> Black mustard seeds
> Coconut milk
> Pulses or lentils (urad dal is quite popular)
> Rice or rice flour or some type of pulse or lentil flour
> Curry (kari) leaves
> Cilantro for garnish
> Hot red chilli powder
> Chillies, fresh or dried
>
> Depending on the region, there are additional differences. For example,
> Goan cooks prefer vinegar to tamarind to add sour/tart notes to a dish.
>
>
> >>Does anyone mind sharing a recipe for a South Indian lamb curry?
>
> Bit late, I suppose, but I only just found this NG. Note that this recipe
> uses shallots. Traditionally, one would use the small red onions found in
> Asia, which are more flavorful and pungent. However, I cannot find that
> type of onion in the U.S., so I substitute shallots, which are closer to
> the required flavor.
>
>
> Uppakari
>
>
> 4 Tbsp oil
> 2 tsp mustard seeds (whole brown or black)
> About 10 whole dried red chillies
> 1/2 tsp urad dal or yellow split peas
> 1.25 cups thinly slivered shallots
> 10 medium garlic cloves, slivered
> About 20 fresh curry leaves
> 2 tsp finely grated ginger
> 1.25 cups (12 oz) tomatoes, chopped
> 1 lb boneless lamb shoulder, cubed
> 1/4 tsp ground turmeric
> salt to taste
>
> Heat oil over medium high heat. Add mustard seeds and cover. When you hear
> the seeds pop, uncover the pan, add urad dal and chillies, and stir. (Make
> sure your kitchen is well-ventilated and the stove fan turned on, as the
> seeds make a lot of smoke when they fry.)
>
> When the urad dal reddens, add shallots, garlic, curry leaves, and fry,
> stirring till the shallots are golden-brown. Add ginger and stir.
>
> Add the lamb and stir till sealed on all sides. Add tomatoes and cook till
> softened. Add turmeric and salt and mix well.
> Add 2 cups water and bring to the boil. Cover, reduce heat to low, and
cook
> until tender (approximately 1 hour).
>
> Remove lid, raise the heat to high, and cook till the liquid is reduced to
> a thick and clingy sauce.
>
> Serves 4.
>
> This recipe yields a very very tasty, authentic and hot spicy curry. If
you
> do not want that much heat, reduce the number of dried red chillies
> accordingly.
>
>
> > Given the great preponderance of practising vegetarians in the S.
> > Indian popularion
>
> Um ... it depends on the region and also on the caste or ethnic subgroup.
> The tribals of Andhra Pradesh, for example, are not vegetarian. Goans and
> Malayalis also are noted for their non-vegetarian cuisine.
>
> > and the lack of sheep raising,
>
> People in India tend to raise goats rather than sheep. So perhaps "Mutton
> curry" rather than "lamb curry" would be appropriate.
>
> > I would be surprized
> > to find a "South Indian lamb curry".
>
> South Indians make a wide variety of excellent mutton curries. If you live
> in a country where you cannot find mutton, you can substitute lamb,
> although you should adjust your seasonings accordingly. Lamb is also more
> tender than mutton and less flavoursome, so cooking times must also be
> adjusted.
>
> > You might want to try north or
> > northwest where the Muslim population is larger.
> >
> > FWIW, most "sauces" in S. India seem to contain "curry" or "kari"
> > leaves. (the leaves of Murraya koenigii) Personally, I've never seen
> > them in a dish that contained meat, but they are a characteristic
> > flavor.
>
> ???? I have. Kari leaves are a signature of South Indian cooking.
>
>
>
> > If you like lamb, try this one.
>
> > Royal Braised Lamb with Fragrant Spices
> > (Shahi Korma)
>
>
> Interesting recipe. Where did you get it?
>
> For anyone planning to use this recipe, please do *not* use sour cream.
The
> yoghurt should add enough sourness for a good Shahi Korma. You can
> substitute a "less-hot" chilli powder for the paprika. I personally find
> paprika does not go well with Indian spices. If you cannot find "black
> cumin," ask for kalonji, kalanji, or kala jira, which is also known as
> "wild onion seed" in some parts of the world.


black cumin is kala jeera, also known as Royal cumin or shah jeera. It is
not nigella (kalonji) and wild black onion seed is a complete misnomer.
If you can't find black cumin, leave it out; do not substitute caraway,
which is often mis-quoted in Indian recipes. It is not found in India.


>
> Do *not* add the garam masala to the dish until you are almost finished
> cooking. A true garam masala is never cooked, just lightly heated through.
> I never use nonstick pans to caramelize onions. They seem to do better in
> regular pans. There are also health issues involved in using nonstick
pans.
>
> Also, what is a Mughal garam masala? Could anyone please post a recipe? I
> have never heard of "Mughal garam masala" before.
>

This usually contains green cardomom, cinnamon, mace, black pepper and a few
cloves. As the recipe already contains some of these, I don't know why more
is needed, unless its an example of the modern fad of adding gm to all
dishes just before serving. The use of American measures and paprika tends
to suggest it is an adaption, at best, of an original Moghul dish from NW
India.

Also, the spices used are not unique to any region, especially not the
north, being a mix of what I would expect in a 'normal' gm. For a Northern
flavour, I would expect black cumin, black cardamom and cassia in there
somewhere. I think there is far too much mace in the recipe below. I would
agree about the sour cream, obviously a western interpretation. I think the
paprika, if used, should not be added until after the yoghurt, its only for
colour. This recipe is not a million miles away from Rogan Josh (which is
also a korma), except for other spices. . Don't forget to seal the lid well,
to reduce loss of water, and keep the temperature of the oven to medium, not
hot.
Cheers
Wazza

> > For 8.
> >
> > ½ Cup usli ghee or light vegetable oil
> > 1 ½ Cups Onions, finely sliced
> > 1 Tbsp Garlic, finely chopped
> > 1 ½ Tbsp Ginger, finely chopped
> > 2 tsp Black cumin (or 1 ½ tsp ground cumin)
> > 1 ½ tsp Mace, ground
> > ¾ tsp Cinnamon, ground
> > 1 tsp Mughal garam masala
> > ½ tsp Chili, ground (or to taste)
> > 1 tsp Paprika
> > 3 lbs Lamb, lean, bone-free, cut into 1 ½ in cubes
> > 1 Cup Yogurt, plain
> > 1 Cup Sour cream or heavy cream
> > 1 Tbsp Kosher salt
> > milk as needed.
> >
> > 1. Heat the ghee in a large heavy-bottomed pan, preferably a non-stick
> > type, and add onions. Over medium-high heat, fry the onions until
> > they turn caramel brown (about 15 minutes), stirring constantly to
> > prevent burning. (See directions for Brown-frying Onions p. 71).
> > 2. Add garlic and ginger, and cook for an additional 2 minutes. Add
> > cumin, mace, cinnamon, Mughal garam masala, red pepper, and paprika,
> > and stir rapidly for a moment or two to distribute the spices into the
> > fried onions.
> > 3. Dry meat pieces thoroughly on paper towels. Increase heat to high,
> > add meat pieces, and brown them on all sides evenly, turning and
> > tossing them rapidly (about 5 minutes). Add ½ cup yogurt, ½ cup sour
> > or heavy cream, and salt, and bring to a boil. Reduce heat, and
> > simmer the meat, covered, until very tender (about 2 hours). The meat
> > should be checked and stirred frequently during cooking to keep the
> > sauce from sticking and burning. If the sauce evaporates too fast
> > while cooking, add a little milk, When the korma is fully cooked, it
> > should look quite dry, with just enough gravy to coat the meat pieces.
> > Stir in the remaining yogurt and cream, and turn off heat.
> >
> > Note: Because the korma is practically sauceless, a considerable
> > amount of fat usually separates and floats on the surface. This is
> > characteristic of korma dishes. The dishes are traditionally served
> > with the fat. For various reasons, however, I prefer to degrease the
> > dish slightly, leaving just enough fat to coat and glaze the gravy and
> > meat pieces. The scooped-out fat may be used in preparing other
> > dishes or frying onions for garnish.
>
>
> sq

"Wazza" > wrote in
:
> "mroo philpott-smythe" > wrote in message
> ...

>> If you cannot find
>> "black cumin," ask for kalonji, kalanji, or kala jira, which is also
>> known as "wild onion seed" in some parts of the world.

> black cumin is kala jeera, also known as Royal cumin or shah jeera. It
> is not nigella (kalonji) and wild black onion seed is a complete
> misnomer.

Nigella is often sold in the U.S. as "wild onion seed" - at least that's
how I purchase it. I know it's the same thing I grew up cooking with,
because (obviously) I've tasted it.

However, I did not know that black cumin was a different beast. Where do
you buy it? I've been using kalanji in place of kala jira for years.

>> Also, what is a Mughal garam masala? Could anyone please post a
>> recipe? I have never heard of "Mughal garam masala" before.

> This usually contains green cardomom, cinnamon, mace, black pepper and
> a few cloves.

Proportions? Thanks for the info, by the bye.

> As the recipe already contains some of these, I don't
> know why more is needed, unless its an example of the modern fad of
> adding gm to all dishes just before serving.

I wondered about that. It sounds as if the dish would be overspiced and
out of balance.

> The use of American
> measures and paprika tends to suggest it is an adaption, at best, of
> an original Moghul dish from NW India.

> Also, the spices used are not unique to any region, especially not the
> north, being a mix of what I would expect in a 'normal' gm. For a
> Northern flavour, I would expect black cumin, black cardamom and
> cassia in there somewhere.

Cassia, not cinnamon? I've been using cassia up to now, but recently
bought some excellent high quality cinnamon and was going to make a
little garam masala using that.

Your recommendation?

> I would agree about the sour cream, obviously a western
> interpretation. I think the paprika, if used, should not be added
> until after the yoghurt, its only for colour.

But one can buy a less-hot mirch powder to use, no? I really do not like
the way paprika's flavour clashes with the spices used in this dish.

> This recipe is not a
> million miles away from Rogan Josh (which is also a korma),

That's exactly what I was thinking. Rogan Josh is more likely to have
that rich red layer of oil, as well.

> except for
> other spices. . Don't forget to seal the lid well, to reduce loss of
> water, and keep the temperature of the oven to medium, not hot.

Thanks for the info.

sq

"Wazza" > wrote in
:
> "mroo philpott-smythe" > wrote in message
> ...

>> If you cannot find
>> "black cumin," ask for kalonji, kalanji, or kala jira, which is also
>> known as "wild onion seed" in some parts of the world.

> black cumin is kala jeera, also known as Royal cumin or shah jeera. It
> is not nigella (kalonji) and wild black onion seed is a complete
> misnomer.

Nigella is often sold in the U.S. as "wild onion seed" - at least that's
how I purchase it. I know it's the same thing I grew up cooking with,
because (obviously) I've tasted it.

However, I did not know that black cumin was a different beast. Where do
you buy it? I've been using kalanji in place of kala jira for years.

>> Also, what is a Mughal garam masala? Could anyone please post a
>> recipe? I have never heard of "Mughal garam masala" before.

> This usually contains green cardomom, cinnamon, mace, black pepper and
> a few cloves.

Proportions? Thanks for the info, by the bye.

> As the recipe already contains some of these, I don't
> know why more is needed, unless its an example of the modern fad of
> adding gm to all dishes just before serving.

I wondered about that. It sounds as if the dish would be overspiced and
out of balance.

> The use of American
> measures and paprika tends to suggest it is an adaption, at best, of
> an original Moghul dish from NW India.

> Also, the spices used are not unique to any region, especially not the
> north, being a mix of what I would expect in a 'normal' gm. For a
> Northern flavour, I would expect black cumin, black cardamom and
> cassia in there somewhere.

Cassia, not cinnamon? I've been using cassia up to now, but recently
bought some excellent high quality cinnamon and was going to make a
little garam masala using that.

Your recommendation?

> I would agree about the sour cream, obviously a western
> interpretation. I think the paprika, if used, should not be added
> until after the yoghurt, its only for colour.

But one can buy a less-hot mirch powder to use, no? I really do not like
the way paprika's flavour clashes with the spices used in this dish.

> This recipe is not a
> million miles away from Rogan Josh (which is also a korma),

That's exactly what I was thinking. Rogan Josh is more likely to have
that rich red layer of oil, as well.

> except for
> other spices. . Don't forget to seal the lid well, to reduce loss of
> water, and keep the temperature of the oven to medium, not hot.

Thanks for the info.

sq

"mroo philpott-smythe" > wrote in message
...
> "Wazza" > wrote in
> :
> > "mroo philpott-smythe" > wrote in message
> > ...
>
> >> If you cannot find
> >> "black cumin," ask for kalonji, kalanji, or kala jira, which is also
> >> known as "wild onion seed" in some parts of the world.
>
> > black cumin is kala jeera, also known as Royal cumin or shah jeera. It
> > is not nigella (kalonji) and wild black onion seed is a complete
> > misnomer.
>
> Nigella is often sold in the U.S. as "wild onion seed" - at least that's
> how I purchase it. I know it's the same thing I grew up cooking with,
> because (obviously) I've tasted it.
>
> However, I did not know that black cumin was a different beast. Where do
> you buy it? I've been using kalanji in place of kala jira for years.


Nigella is the seed from a flowering plant called 'love-in-a-mist'. It is
called wild black onion seed because it looks similar to it, but not
botanically or presumably taste. Buy black cumin from an Indian/Pakistani
grocers, it is often called kala jeera or shah jeera. It has a slight
medicinal note, and is to ordinary cumin as black cardamom is to green
cardamom in flavour. It is shorter and thinner than cumin seed, much more
expensive than cumin as it not cultivated, but collected from the wild. I
think the botanical name is Bunium Persicum, suggesting it originated in
Persia (Iran).
>
> >> Also, what is a Mughal garam masala? Could anyone please post a
> >> recipe? I have never heard of "Mughal garam masala" before.
>
> > This usually contains green cardomom, cinnamon, mace, black pepper and
> > a few cloves.
>
> Proportions? Thanks for the info, by the bye.

4 parts green cardamom
1 part cinnamon
1 part black pepper
1 part cloves
1/4 part nutmeg

I would use cassia in place of cinnamon and mace for nutmeg.
The original recipe called for roasting the spices, I would not.
>
> > As the recipe already contains some of these, I don't
> > know why more is needed, unless its an example of the modern fad of
> > adding gm to all dishes just before serving.
>
> I wondered about that. It sounds as if the dish would be overspiced and
> out of balance.
>
> > The use of American
> > measures and paprika tends to suggest it is an adaption, at best, of
> > an original Moghul dish from NW India.
>
> > Also, the spices used are not unique to any region, especially not the
> > north, being a mix of what I would expect in a 'normal' gm. For a
> > Northern flavour, I would expect black cumin, black cardamom and
> > cassia in there somewhere.
>
> Cassia, not cinnamon? I've been using cassia up to now, but recently
> bought some excellent high quality cinnamon and was going to make a
> little garam masala using that.
>
> Your recommendation?

I find cassia has a darker savory note, which goes with other spices well. I
also grind my own spics, and find that cinnamon can produce sharp shards
when ground. I do not grind my spices too finely, to reduce the possibility
of burning when fried in oil.
>
> > I would agree about the sour cream, obviously a western
> > interpretation. I think the paprika, if used, should not be added
> > until after the yoghurt, its only for colour.
>
> But one can buy a less-hot mirch powder to use, no? I really do not like
> the way paprika's flavour clashes with the spices used in this dish.

Ideally, I would agree. As this dish (should) have originated in NW India or
even Pakistan, the use of Kashmiri chillies is likely, which are much
milder.
>
> > This recipe is not a
> > million miles away from Rogan Josh (which is also a korma),
>
> That's exactly what I was thinking. Rogan Josh is more likely to have
> that rich red layer of oil, as well.
>
> > except for
> > other spices. . Don't forget to seal the lid well, to reduce loss of
> > water, and keep the temperature of the oven to medium, not hot.
>
> Thanks for the info.

you are most welcome
>
> sq

"mroo philpott-smythe" > wrote in message
...
> "Wazza" > wrote in
> :
> > "mroo philpott-smythe" > wrote in message
> > ...
>
> >> If you cannot find
> >> "black cumin," ask for kalonji, kalanji, or kala jira, which is also
> >> known as "wild onion seed" in some parts of the world.
>
> > black cumin is kala jeera, also known as Royal cumin or shah jeera. It
> > is not nigella (kalonji) and wild black onion seed is a complete
> > misnomer.
>
> Nigella is often sold in the U.S. as "wild onion seed" - at least that's
> how I purchase it. I know it's the same thing I grew up cooking with,
> because (obviously) I've tasted it.
>
> However, I did not know that black cumin was a different beast. Where do
> you buy it? I've been using kalanji in place of kala jira for years.


Nigella is the seed from a flowering plant called 'love-in-a-mist'. It is
called wild black onion seed because it looks similar to it, but not
botanically or presumably taste. Buy black cumin from an Indian/Pakistani
grocers, it is often called kala jeera or shah jeera. It has a slight
medicinal note, and is to ordinary cumin as black cardamom is to green
cardamom in flavour. It is shorter and thinner than cumin seed, much more
expensive than cumin as it not cultivated, but collected from the wild. I
think the botanical name is Bunium Persicum, suggesting it originated in
Persia (Iran).
>
> >> Also, what is a Mughal garam masala? Could anyone please post a
> >> recipe? I have never heard of "Mughal garam masala" before.
>
> > This usually contains green cardomom, cinnamon, mace, black pepper and
> > a few cloves.
>
> Proportions? Thanks for the info, by the bye.

4 parts green cardamom
1 part cinnamon
1 part black pepper
1 part cloves
1/4 part nutmeg

I would use cassia in place of cinnamon and mace for nutmeg.
The original recipe called for roasting the spices, I would not.
>
> > As the recipe already contains some of these, I don't
> > know why more is needed, unless its an example of the modern fad of
> > adding gm to all dishes just before serving.
>
> I wondered about that. It sounds as if the dish would be overspiced and
> out of balance.
>
> > The use of American
> > measures and paprika tends to suggest it is an adaption, at best, of
> > an original Moghul dish from NW India.
>
> > Also, the spices used are not unique to any region, especially not the
> > north, being a mix of what I would expect in a 'normal' gm. For a
> > Northern flavour, I would expect black cumin, black cardamom and
> > cassia in there somewhere.
>
> Cassia, not cinnamon? I've been using cassia up to now, but recently
> bought some excellent high quality cinnamon and was going to make a
> little garam masala using that.
>
> Your recommendation?

I find cassia has a darker savory note, which goes with other spices well. I
also grind my own spics, and find that cinnamon can produce sharp shards
when ground. I do not grind my spices too finely, to reduce the possibility
of burning when fried in oil.
>
> > I would agree about the sour cream, obviously a western
> > interpretation. I think the paprika, if used, should not be added
> > until after the yoghurt, its only for colour.
>
> But one can buy a less-hot mirch powder to use, no? I really do not like
> the way paprika's flavour clashes with the spices used in this dish.

Ideally, I would agree. As this dish (should) have originated in NW India or
even Pakistan, the use of Kashmiri chillies is likely, which are much
milder.
>
> > This recipe is not a
> > million miles away from Rogan Josh (which is also a korma),
>
> That's exactly what I was thinking. Rogan Josh is more likely to have
> that rich red layer of oil, as well.
>
> > except for
> > other spices. . Don't forget to seal the lid well, to reduce loss of
> > water, and keep the temperature of the oven to medium, not hot.
>
> Thanks for the info.

you are most welcome
>
> sq

"Wazza" > wrote in
:
> "mroo philpott-smythe" > wrote in message
> ...

> Nigella is the seed from a flowering plant called 'love-in-a-mist'.

That's Nigella damascena, which I grow in my garden. %^)

The Nigella from which the kalonji comes is Nigella sativa, which is native
to India, I believe.

> is called wild black onion seed because it looks similar to it, but
> not botanically or presumably taste. Buy black cumin from an
> Indian/Pakistani grocers, it is often called kala jeera or shah jeera.

Thanks, I got some. I remember my dad used to cook with it.

> I would use cassia in place of cinnamon and mace for nutmeg.
> The original recipe called for roasting the spices, I would not.

Thanks very much for the recipe.

>> Cassia, not cinnamon? I've been using cassia up to now, but recently
>> bought some excellent high quality cinnamon and was going to make a
>> little garam masala using that.

>> Your recommendation?

> I find cassia has a darker savory note, which goes with other spices
> well. I also grind my own spics, and find that cinnamon can produce
> sharp shards when ground. I do not grind my spices too finely, to
> reduce the possibility of burning when fried in oil.

I also grind my own spices in a coffee-grinder (which is never used for
anything else). However, I find that that type of grinding causes some
problems, On the other hand, I really don't want to go back to the old
days, when one had to grind on those huge granite blocks, even if that does
create the best texture and quality!

>> > I would agree about the sour cream, obviously a western
>> > interpretation. I think the paprika, if used, should not be added
>> > until after the yoghurt, its only for colour.

>> But one can buy a less-hot mirch powder to use, no? I really do not
>> like the way paprika's flavour clashes with the spices used in this
>> dish.

> Ideally, I would agree. As this dish (should) have originated in NW
> India or even Pakistan, the use of Kashmiri chillies is likely, which
> are much milder.

Would you believe the Indian grocery store where I bought the kala jira is
now carrying bags of paprika right next to the mirch!

I used to get my mirch ground fresh at the local spice shop, but that is
not possible in the U.S.A. For one thing, they don't even carry all those
varieties of mirch that I'm used to.

I'll try the online spice dealers to see if I can find Kashmiri chillies.
Thanks for the tip.

sq

"mroo philpott-smythe" > wrote in message
...
> "Wazza" > wrote in
> :
> > "mroo philpott-smythe" > wrote in message
> > ...
>
> > Nigella is the seed from a flowering plant called 'love-in-a-mist'.
>
> That's Nigella damascena, which I grow in my garden. %^)
>
> The Nigella from which the kalonji comes is Nigella sativa, which is
native
> to India, I believe.

yes, you are correst, the nigella seed is a relative of the garden plant.
>
> > is called wild black onion seed because it looks similar to it, but
> > not botanically or presumably taste. Buy black cumin from an
> > Indian/Pakistani grocers, it is often called kala jeera or shah jeera.
>
> Thanks, I got some. I remember my dad used to cook with it.
>
> > I would use cassia in place of cinnamon and mace for nutmeg.
> > The original recipe called for roasting the spices, I would not.
>
> Thanks very much for the recipe.
>
> >> Cassia, not cinnamon? I've been using cassia up to now, but recently
> >> bought some excellent high quality cinnamon and was going to make a
> >> little garam masala using that.
>
> >> Your recommendation?
>
> > I find cassia has a darker savory note, which goes with other spices
> > well. I also grind my own spics, and find that cinnamon can produce
> > sharp shards when ground. I do not grind my spices too finely, to
> > reduce the possibility of burning when fried in oil.
>
> I also grind my own spices in a coffee-grinder (which is never used for
> anything else). However, I find that that type of grinding causes some
> problems, On the other hand, I really don't want to go back to the old
> days, when one had to grind on those huge granite blocks, even if that
does
> create the best texture and quality!

what problems do you encounter? I use a lab type blender, made by Waring US.
It is VERY powerful, but I never let it grind to a powder. This reduces the
likelyhood of burning when extracting into hot oil, and leaves little
'taste-bombs' of spice to savour! I prefer this to an overall smooth
flavour, I like to taste the individual ingredients.
>
> >> > I would agree about the sour cream, obviously a western
> >> > interpretation. I think the paprika, if used, should not be added
> >> > until after the yoghurt, its only for colour.
>
> >> But one can buy a less-hot mirch powder to use, no? I really do not
> >> like the way paprika's flavour clashes with the spices used in this
> >> dish.
>
> > Ideally, I would agree. As this dish (should) have originated in NW
> > India or even Pakistan, the use of Kashmiri chillies is likely, which
> > are much milder.
>
> Would you believe the Indian grocery store where I bought the kala jira is
> now carrying bags of paprika right next to the mirch!

well, they are closely related, same genus. The quality of the paprika
matters, I think Hungarian is better than Spanish but any paprika seems to
deteriorate very quickly. I much prefer to use either fresh chilli, of buy
fresh red, and let them dry, that way I know the provenance, and there is no
chance of adulteration (of the chilli at least!!!). I have dried large
capsicums (bell peppers) but not tried grinding them yet, they look too
good!
>
> I used to get my mirch ground fresh at the local spice shop, but that is
> not possible in the U.S.A. For one thing, they don't even carry all those
> varieties of mirch that I'm used to.

Care to expand, which ones are you lacking?
>
> I'll try the online spice dealers to see if I can find Kashmiri chillies.

I am of the opinion that (probably due to the conflicts in Kashmir) the
export of their chilli has all but dried-up, maybe it's same for saffron
(mine comes from Spain).

> Thanks for the tip.

you're welcome
cheers
Wazza

"Wazza" > wrote in
:
> "mroo philpott-smythe" > wrote in message
> ...


>> I also grind my own spices in a coffee-grinder (which is never used
>> for anything else). However, I find that that type of grinding causes
>> some problems, On the other hand, I really don't want to go back to
>> the old days, when one had to grind on those huge granite blocks,
>> even if that does create the best texture and quality!

> what problems do you encounter?

When you do it on the granite, everything smooshes into a nice smooth
paste. I remember the old ladies would scoop the paste up from the big
blocks and then scrape it back into the middle of the blocks if it wasn't
smooth enough (and give you a knock on the back of the head with a
knuckle) and you would have to giling-giling-giling some more until one
of the expert aunties would pronounce the paste done.

The grinder/blender produces a waterier paste, which can require more oil
to fry. Also, the grinder never gets some spices ground enough (methi
comes to mind).

> I use a lab type blender, made by
> Waring US. It is VERY powerful, but I never let it grind to a powder.
> This reduces the likelyhood of burning when extracting into hot oil,
> and leaves little 'taste-bombs' of spice to savour! I prefer this to
> an overall smooth flavour, I like to taste the individual ingredients.

That's not how they made the rempahs of my childhood. However, the Waring
blender sounds interesting. I will google it.

I made an Indonesian chicken dish last night, and the lemongrass fibers
were still sticking in the rempah (and in my throat). When you giling it
on the big stone, the lemongrass turns into paste, which is nice.


>> Would you believe the Indian grocery store where I bought the kala
>> jira is now carrying bags of paprika right next to the mirch!

> well, they are closely related, same genus. The quality of the paprika
> matters, I think Hungarian is better than Spanish but any paprika
> seems to deteriorate very quickly. I much prefer to use either fresh
> chilli, of buy fresh red, and let them dry, that way I know the
> provenance, and there is no chance of adulteration (of the chilli at
> least!!!). I have dried large capsicums (bell peppers) but not tried
> grinding them yet, they look too good!

Same genus, very different tastes!

I made something traditionally Indian recently, and the recipe called for
paprika, so I used some (got it from CMC or Dean & DeLuca). Bag that. The
next time I make it, I'm just going to substitute mirch. It had a faintly
musky undertone from the paprika, almost like honey, which doesn't really
work with a coconut-milk based curry - to my tongue, anyway.

>> I used to get my mirch ground fresh at the local spice shop, but that
>> is not possible in the U.S.A. For one thing, they don't even carry
>> all those varieties of mirch that I'm used to.

> Care to expand, which ones are you lacking?

I don't know what they're called. This is from my childhood, when I would
go with my dad to buy freshly-made yoghurt from the dahiwallah and fresh-
ground atha for making chapatis and he would have the man at the atha
dealer's grind up various mirch into powder. I don't remember the names,
but in later years when I would go to buy, I would just point at the big
gunnysacks full of chillies.

>> I'll try the online spice dealers to see if I can find Kashmiri
>> chillies.

> I am of the opinion that (probably due to the conflicts in Kashmir)
> the export of their chilli has all but dried-up, maybe it's same for
> saffron (mine comes from Spain).

I've always heard that the Spanish zafran is the best quality. It's what
I use. (Not that I cook with it a whole lot!)


sq