I have been living in north america for a long time and have extensibly
traveled in the western countries. One thing that really stands out
about indian restaurants outside south asia is that they have mastered
the art of serving the same mass produced gravy adorned with ingenious
names that almost rolls out of tongue of every non-indian customer of
theirs.

I have never been able to tell "Rogan Josh" from "Kadai Lamb" or "Kadai
Chicken" from "Chicken Masala" or "Chicken Curry". There are literally
hundreds of dishes made out of the same set of curry pastes. Some are
garnished with tomatoes, while others with coriander leaves. They
pretty much start out with a vegetable curry base, add some cauliflower
and potatoes to it and call is "Aloo Gobi". Pretty exotic eh? and then
you move on and add some chicken and call is chicken vindaloo. Why stop
there.. let's add some lamb and call it "Rogan Josh".

Read more @ http://www.khanakhazana.com/articles...tedbywest.aspx

"Desi" > wrote in message
oups.com...
: I have been living in north america for a long time and have extensibly
: traveled in the western countries. One thing that really stands out
: about indian restaurants outside south asia is that they have mastered
: the art of serving the same mass produced gravy adorned with ingenious
: names that almost rolls out of tongue of every non-indian customer of
: theirs.
:
: I have never been able to tell "Rogan Josh" from "Kadai Lamb" or "Kadai
: Chicken" from "Chicken Masala" or "Chicken Curry". There are literally
: hundreds of dishes made out of the same set of curry pastes. Some are
: garnished with tomatoes, while others with coriander leaves. They
: pretty much start out with a vegetable curry base, add some cauliflower
: and potatoes to it and call is "Aloo Gobi". Pretty exotic eh? and then
: you move on and add some chicken and call is chicken vindaloo. Why stop
: there.. let's add some lamb and call it "Rogan Josh".
:
: Read more @ http://www.khanakhazana.com/articles...tedbywest.aspx
:
come on, Rajiv, please don't blame the British for the appalling rubbish served
up in the name of Indian food in the UK, and elsewhere. These establishments are
run by Indians, Bangladeshis, Pakistanis, etc, not by the indigenous Brits, so
the situation arises from the Indian sub-continent, not the UK.
What you have stated is what many Brits have known for a very long time, that
the 'curry house 'offerings are no more Indian than Sir Cliff Richard, but for
the less fastidious diner, the Saturday night curry is the highlight of their
week. They actually like it, I wonder how many of them have tasted real Indian
food?

When I prepare real Indian food, people are very surprised by what is on offer,
and although they might recognise breads, raita and salads, the meat dishes are
a million miles away from those which you describe and we have all sampled in
'Indian restaurants'.
In the UK, there appears to be a new beginning in Indian restaurants,
unfortunately, it is not Indian either, more India (con)fusion, where high
prices are asked for something which is not definitely not desi. And thawa is
the new balti. What next? tandoori chicken served in its own little table-top
tandoor?

All that we (the people in the know) can do is continue to spread the word.
Maybe, just maybe, some people will start to listen, but I doubt it. Their loss?

I've just looked a couple of your recipes, and have to say they are not real
Indian recipes either. Too long in America??
cheers
Wazza

"Wazza" > wrote
> "Desi" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> : I have been living in north america for a long time and have extensibly
> : traveled in the western countries. One thing that really stands out
> : about indian restaurants outside south asia is that they have mastered
> : the art of serving the same mass produced gravy adorned with ingenious
> : names that almost rolls out of tongue of every non-indian customer of
> : theirs.
<snip> :
> come on, Rajiv, please don't blame the British for the appalling rubbish
> served
> up in the name of Indian food in the UK, and elsewhere. These
> establishments are
> run by Indians, Bangladeshis, Pakistanis, etc, not by the indigenous
> Brits, so
> the situation arises from the Indian sub-continent, not the UK.
> What you have stated is what many Brits have known for a very long time,
> that
> the 'curry house 'offerings are no more Indian than Sir Cliff Richard,
>
> When I prepare real Indian food, people are very surprised by what is on
> offer,
> and although they might recognise breads, raita and salads, the meat
> dishes are
> a million miles away from those which you describe and we have all sampled
> in
> 'Indian restaurants'.

(1) on a humorous note, I attended an Indian wedding in California, and to
be honest the food served was no different from rather middle of the road
Indian restaurant food, the same little fried this and 'curry' that. There
*are* some at least fairly good Indian restaurants in the area (large
Silicon-Valley Indian contingent), where the dishes are distinct.

(2) I've had some interesting discussions with Chinese friends on why
"Chinese restaurant" food bears so little resemblance to real Chinese food,
or at least is so limited. Even when the same restaurant may have a "real"
Chinese menu, that will be off limits unless you read/speak Chinese. My
best guess is that it is mainly (now) a kind of feedback loop -- the
restaurant managers think this is what their customers want, and that they
would be put off by more authentic dishes, so that's what they offer; and
the customers think that that is what Chinese food is, so that's what they
demand. Historically, at least in the US, I have a hunch it goes back to
the 19th and early 20th century, when Chinese restaurants were founded
basically by batchelors who had never actually learned to cook, were just
going by memories of what their moms had made and a few key ingredients (soy
sauce, etc). Think Gold Rush mining camps. And they were primarily
focusing on producing a tasty big feed cheap for themselves and other hungry
men who knew nothing. There also seems to be a certain element of snobbery
and exclusivity, not wanting to share the 'good stuff' with the barbarians.

(2) more humorous notes: At a conference in San Francisco, a colleague from
Hong Kong invited me to a restaurant he had eaten at and liked, 'just like
home'. We were apparently treated wholly differently because he now had a
'foreigner' with him -- seated in different section (actually a whole
different floor), given different menus, rice on plates instead of rice
bowls, etc. Eating with another friend in a restaurant with both 'real' and
'Chinese restaurant' food, she refused to believe that one pork kidney dish
I particularly liked was not on the English menu ... I had to get the
proprietor to admit to that and show me where on the Chinese menu it was.

"ggull" > wrote in message
...
: "Wazza" > wrote
: > "Desi" > wrote in message
: > oups.com...
: > : I have been living in north america for a long time and have extensibly
: > : traveled in the western countries. One thing that really stands out
: > : about indian restaurants outside south asia is that they have mastered
: > : the art of serving the same mass produced gravy adorned with ingenious
: > : names that almost rolls out of tongue of every non-indian customer of
: > : theirs.
: <snip> :
: > come on, Rajiv, please don't blame the British for the appalling rubbish
: > served
: > up in the name of Indian food in the UK, and elsewhere. These
: > establishments are
: > run by Indians, Bangladeshis, Pakistanis, etc, not by the indigenous
: > Brits, so
: > the situation arises from the Indian sub-continent, not the UK.
: > What you have stated is what many Brits have known for a very long time,
: > that
: > the 'curry house 'offerings are no more Indian than Sir Cliff Richard,
: >
: > When I prepare real Indian food, people are very surprised by what is on
: > offer,
: > and although they might recognise breads, raita and salads, the meat
: > dishes are
: > a million miles away from those which you describe and we have all sampled
: > in
: > 'Indian restaurants'.
:
: (1) on a humorous note, I attended an Indian wedding in California, and to
: be honest the food served was no different from rather middle of the road
: Indian restaurant food, the same little fried this and 'curry' that. There
: *are* some at least fairly good Indian restaurants in the area (large
: Silicon-Valley Indian contingent), where the dishes are distinct.
:
: (2) I've had some interesting discussions with Chinese friends on why
: "Chinese restaurant" food bears so little resemblance to real Chinese food,
: or at least is so limited. Even when the same restaurant may have a "real"
: Chinese menu, that will be off limits unless you read/speak Chinese. My
: best guess is that it is mainly (now) a kind of feedback loop -- the
: restaurant managers think this is what their customers want, and that they
: would be put off by more authentic dishes, so that's what they offer; and
: the customers think that that is what Chinese food is, so that's what they
: demand. Historically, at least in the US, I have a hunch it goes back to
: the 19th and early 20th century, when Chinese restaurants were founded
: basically by batchelors who had never actually learned to cook, were just
: going by memories of what their moms had made and a few key ingredients (soy
: sauce, etc). Think Gold Rush mining camps. And they were primarily
: focusing on producing a tasty big feed cheap for themselves and other hungry
: men who knew nothing. There also seems to be a certain element of snobbery
: and exclusivity, not wanting to share the 'good stuff' with the barbarians.
:
: (2) more humorous notes: At a conference in San Francisco, a colleague from
: Hong Kong invited me to a restaurant he had eaten at and liked, 'just like
: home'. We were apparently treated wholly differently because he now had a
: 'foreigner' with him -- seated in different section (actually a whole
: different floor), given different menus, rice on plates instead of rice
: bowls, etc. Eating with another friend in a restaurant with both 'real' and
: 'Chinese restaurant' food, she refused to believe that one pork kidney dish
: I particularly liked was not on the English menu ... I had to get the
: proprietor to admit to that and show me where on the Chinese menu it was.
:
I think there's more than a grain of truth in what you report, ggull.
I've known Indian friends walk out of Indian restaurants in the past, in disgust
at the food being served, but later generations seem to stay, suggesting second
and third generation Indians in the UK think that restaurant food is the pukka
thing. I'm told stories that similar food is sold in Indian restaurants in
India, so much confusion everywhere. It doesn't help that India is so vast, but
incredibly parochial, meaning that a dish cooked by people in one village can be
very different from others around. Most of the dishes seem to be very ordinary,
not the grand dishes that most 'Indian restaurants' aspire to.
I've not found different menus in Indian restaurants in the UK, though I have a
sneaky suspicion that some 'dishes' are reserved only for the drunks.
cheers
Wazza

"ggull" > wrote in message
...
<snip>
> (2) I've had some interesting discussions with Chinese friends on why
> "Chinese restaurant" food bears so little resemblance to real Chinese
food,
> or at least is so limited.

It's simple.... we(Chinese) have 2 types of food in most Chinese restaurants
across the world incl. in HK, we have restaurant styled food & home styled
food. You'll more often then not find home styled food on the Chinese only
menu, well that's how it is here in the UK.

> restaurant managers think this is what their customers want, and that they
> would be put off by more authentic dishes, so that's what they offer; and
> the customers think that that is what Chinese food is, so that's what they
> demand.

Probably true but if you grew up eating *westernised* Chinese food say 20,
30, 40yrs ago in the States or UK & not had the real thing before, you'd
think what you're eating was the real thing anyway. Then people started
going on long haul holidays & it also became easier to import some hard to
get ingredients from Asia & we now have the 2 menu secenario. There's also
more recently arrived Chinese now in the States & UK, so there's a demand
for more *authentic* Chinese food. This thing about having 2 menus... well
it's just food developing & tastes evolving. We now have *westernised*
Chinese food in Asia too & some are really good like deep fried oatmeal
coated prawns flavoured with butter or how about deep fried prawn
wantons/dumplings served with salad cream/sauce. Back to the OP, i
believe this is true for Indian food as well, you can now find *English*
Indian food like Baltis in the Indian subcontinent. BTW... quite a lot of
the Indian restaurants in the UK are run by Bangladeshis from a certain part
of Bangladesh, can't remember which province/region. Same thing is true with
Chinese restaurants in the West, most are or in the early days were run by
Cantonese, hence Cantonese/Southern styled Chinese food is popular in the
West or outside China.

> Historically, at least in the US, I have a hunch it goes back to
> the 19th and early 20th century, when Chinese restaurants were founded
> basically by batchelors who had never actually learned to cook, were just
> going by memories of what their moms had made and a few key ingredients
(soy
> sauce, etc).

Hehee... not quite true... i've done a bit of research into this, Chinese
men were expected to travel & look for work, some went overseas to earn
money & send money back to family in China/Asia. Once settled in new
pastures, they would or might consider bringing the wife/women or family
over. These men knew how to cook, you'll only have to read about the
Hainanese cooks in colonial days in service with the British across Asia &
beyond. The main problems for Chinese cooking overseas/in the West in the
early days were getting their Chinese ingredients. Even till this day, this
still rings true, i've travelled across Europe & found that in countries
which did not have colonies in Asia, there are very small Chinese/Asian
communities in these countries & as such the supermarkets & restaurants do
not stock everything. I've even eaten in these restaurants & have spoken to
the owners in various dailects. (a very tough job indeed) & the general
consensus is that ingredients are hard to get. That's why most of the dishes
are pretty basic. I've even had spaghetti fried up as noodles... so my
point is that Chinese men can cook but it's just not easy finding Chinese
ingredients for a proper meal in a *foreign* land. Besides... there are very
few Chinese women cooks/chefs even today in restaurants unless you go to a
small mum & dad type cafe stall. As a Chinese, we say it's a hard life
working in a restaurant & we prefer men to do that kind of work while the
women either stay at home or work as waitresses... not being sexist at all
but that's how it's been for as long as i know.

> There also seems to be a certain element of snobbery
> and exclusivity, not wanting to share the 'good stuff' with the
barbarians.

Now that bit might be true... i certainly wouldn't want to share my chicken
feet, duck tongues & stinky shrimp paste with any barbarians, heheeee...


> (2) more humorous notes: At a conference in San Francisco, a colleague
from
> Hong Kong invited me to a restaurant he had eaten at and liked, 'just like
> home'. We were apparently treated wholly differently because he now had a
> 'foreigner' with him -- seated in different section (actually a whole
> different floor), given different menus, rice on plates instead of rice
> bowls, etc. Eating with another friend in a restaurant with both 'real'
and
> 'Chinese restaurant' food, she refused to believe that one pork kidney
dish
> I particularly liked was not on the English menu ... I had to get the
> proprietor to admit to that and show me where on the Chinese menu it was.

I wouldn't call the above example racist... it's just that you'll probably
feel more comfortable eating with a mixed crowd then in a Chinese speaking
only dining area... we are pretty messy eaters, we shout, talk with our
mouths full & shovel rice from bowl to mouth in 10secs flat. Some elderly
gents even Umm... have rather disgusting behaviours like snort & clear their
noses or thoats in public. But to be fair & on the practical side of
things... Chinese speaking waiters work the Chinese areas while bilingual
waiters do the dining rooms/halls/floors with the mixed crowds. And hence...
we're back to the 2 menus scenario.

my 2 chopstixs worth of commentary...

DC.

DC. wrote:
> "ggull" > wrote in message
> ...
> <snip>
>> (2) I've had some interesting discussions with Chinese friends on why
>> "Chinese restaurant" food bears so little resemblance to real Chinese food,
>> or at least is so limited.
>
<snip>
>
> my 2 chopstixs worth of commentary...
>
> DC.

Nice was in Praha where the "Foreign" menu was multi-lingual including Czech
and the "Chinese" menu has the English translation added.

Philippe who saw lots of Chinese girls eating in the plates put at the table centre,
all taking from there with their chopsticks in one dish after the other as they arrived.
Unfortunately, beef stomach was not available that day :-(

On Thu, 1 Sep 2005 17:49:11 +0000 (UTC), "Wazza"
> wrote:

>

>I think there's more than a grain of truth in what you report, ggull.
>I've known Indian friends walk out of Indian restaurants in the past, in disgust
>at the food being served, but later generations seem to stay, suggesting second
>and third generation Indians in the UK think that restaurant food is the pukka
>thing. I'm told stories that similar food is sold in Indian restaurants in
>India, so much confusion everywhere. It doesn't help that India is so vast, but
>incredibly parochial, meaning that a dish cooked by people in one village can be
>very different from others around. Most of the dishes seem to be very ordinary,
>not the grand dishes that most 'Indian restaurants' aspire to.
>I've not found different menus in Indian restaurants in the UK, though I have a
>sneaky suspicion that some 'dishes' are reserved only for the drunks.

I don't think that they believe it is pukka, rather that it is as close
as they are going to get and the memories it evokes is better than
nothing.

Some good comments, DC, and I'm glad we're all taking this in a
non-confrontive way. I guess my chief puzzlement is that restaurant owners
seem to be missing a really good business opportunity, that of educating
customers in the more authentic dishes and profiting from them -- and that
seems, somehow, un-Chinese :-).

"DC." > wrote ... with snippage
> "ggull" > wrote...
> <snip>
>> (2) I've had some interesting discussions with Chinese friends on why
>> "Chinese restaurant" food bears so little resemblance to real Chinese
> food,
>> or at least is so limited.
>
> It's simple.... we(Chinese) have 2 types of food in most Chinese
> restaurants
> across the world incl. in HK, we have restaurant styled food & home styled
> food. You'll more often then not find home styled food on the Chinese only
> menu, well that's how it is here in the UK.
There may be something in that, which is too bad. From my small data base,
it may also be that the Chinese-only menu has more of the 'weird' stuff,
like that pork kidney dish I mentioned (which I think, incidentally, many
people would like if simply given, but might not order if described as 'pork
kidney with fried doughnut and xxx'). I'll have to pay more attention if I
get a chance again.

>> restaurant managers think this is what their customers want, and that
>> they
>> would be put off by more authentic dishes, so that's what they offer; and
>> the customers think that that is what Chinese food is, so that's what
>> they
>> demand.
>
> Probably true but if you grew up eating *westernised* Chinese food say 20,
> 30, 40yrs ago in the States or UK & not had the real thing before, you'd
> think what you're eating was the real thing anyway.
My point exactly.

>Then people started
> going on long haul holidays & it also became easier to import some hard to
> get ingredients from Asia & we now have the 2 menu secenario.
Overall, this timing seems about right, especially for 'exotic' regional
cuisines like Szechuan. But some of the restaurants I'm thinking of seem to
be pretty old style, in business for many years.

>There's also
> more recently arrived Chinese now in the States & UK, so there's a demand
> for more *authentic* Chinese food. This thing about having 2 menus... well
> it's just food developing & tastes evolving.
I guess my 'complaint' .. or maybe better 'regret' .. is not that the food
and taste are evolving, but that it had to go into 2 segregated menus,
rather than evolving and expanding the overall menu.

>We now have *westernised*
> Chinese food in Asia too & some are really good like deep fried oatmeal
> coated prawns flavoured with butter or how about deep fried prawn
> wantons/dumplings served with salad cream/sauce.
Hey, nothing against fusion!

>> Historically, at least in the US, I have a hunch it goes back to
>> the 19th and early 20th century, when Chinese restaurants were founded
>> basically by batchelors who had never actually learned to cook, were just
>> going by memories of what their moms had made and a few key ingredients
> (soy
>> sauce, etc).
>
> Hehee... not quite true... i've done a bit of research into this, Chinese
> men were expected to travel & look for work, some went overseas to earn
> money & send money back to family in China/Asia. Once settled in new
> pastures, they would or might consider bringing the wife/women or family
> over.
Unfortunately, in the US this was not legal for many years, from early on up
to post-WWI.

>These men knew how to cook, you'll only have to read about the
> Hainanese cooks in colonial days in service with the British across Asia &
> beyond. The main problems for Chinese cooking overseas/in the West in the
> early days were getting their Chinese ingredients.

OK, maybe the batchelors had more basic survival skills than I gave them
credit for. But still, at least in 19th century and early 20th century US,
which is when our 'Chinese restaurant' style seems to have risen, From the
histories I've seen and read I really don't get the impression there were a
lot of real chefs among the immigrants. They weren't brought over by
returning colonialists nostalgic for the old days, but were largely
economically driven, the desperate poor, third sons and dispossessed. Or
who knows, maybe there were some restaurant workers as well,displaced by
economic turmoil back home (hey, if you're starving already you don't go out
to eat). But what kind of professional cooking would they have done? Fancy
banquet, upper-class stuff or more basic? I realize I know nothing about
how Chinese ate outside the home back then.

> Even till this day, this
> still rings true, i've travelled across Europe & found that in countries
> which did not have colonies in Asia, there are very small Chinese/Asian
> communities in these countries
Again, I think the US experience has been somewhat different in several
respects. No colonial (merely 'imperialistic') relation per se, immigration
to a fairly wide-open labor hungry west coast followed by backlash
restrictions, etc.

>> There also seems to be a certain element of snobbery
>> and exclusivity, not wanting to share the 'good stuff' with the
> barbarians.
>
> Now that bit might be true... i certainly wouldn't want to share my
> chicken
> feet, duck tongues & stinky shrimp paste with any barbarians, heheeee...
But you'd be surprised what we barbarians can enjoy :-) .. at least one
Chinese friend has (unsuccessfully) tried to gross me out, though I"m not
sure about the stinky shrimp paste.

>> (2) more humorous notes: At a conference in San Francisco, a colleague
> from
>> Hong Kong invited me to a restaurant he had eaten at and liked, 'just
>> like
>> home'. We were apparently treated wholly differently because he now had
>> a
>> 'foreigner' with him -- seated in different section (actually a whole
>> different floor), given different menus, rice on plates instead of rice
>> bowls, etc. <snip>
> I wouldn't call the above example racist... it's just that you'll probably
> feel more comfortable eating with a mixed crowd then in a Chinese speaking
> only dining area...
I wasn't saying racist, exactly. And it was the Hong Kong friend (he'd been
in the US a few years, but in a kind of backwater, and relished San
Francisco's Chinatown) who called this to my attention and seemed put out
about it; I think he wanted to introduce me to some 'real' hometown HK food,
and felt he should not be stigmatized by association.
And I have eaten in pure Chinese dining rooms, where I was the only or one
of 2 or 3 Euros, and it's really what the people at your table are speaking
that counts. With a Chinese speaking member of the party, that shouldn't
make a difference.

> we are pretty messy eaters, we shout, talk with our
> mouths full & shovel rice from bowl to mouth in 10secs flat. Some elderly
> gents even Umm... have rather disgusting behaviours like snort & clear
> their
> noses or thoats in public.
You must not have dined wiht a lot of American families or family style
restaurants :-). We ain't no fancy cheese-eating Europeans.
And the other floor -- it was really more of a different level, in plain
view -- seemed pretty polished, no shouting or disgusting behavior that I
noticed.

But to be fair & on the practical side of
> things... Chinese speaking waiters work the Chinese areas while bilingual
> waiters
We only wish!
.... do the dining rooms/halls/floors with the mixed crowds. And hence...
> we're back to the 2 menus scenario.
If one really had bilingual waiters, it would seem possible to offer the
full menu in the 'mixed' room as well. I think part of the problem is just
that it would be an extra effort, at least initially, to make the "Chinese
only" menu accessible to non-speakers. Plus, it's just a tradition that has
become "the way things are". If business is ok, why rock the boat?

"ggull" > wrote in message
...
> Some good comments, DC, and I'm glad we're all taking this in a
> non-confrontive way. I guess my chief puzzlement is that restaurant
owners
> seem to be missing a really good business opportunity, that of educating
> customers in the more authentic dishes and profiting from them -- and that
> seems, somehow, un-Chinese :-).

Non-confrontative is the way to go if you want to continue posting in
newsgroups in my opinion

A few *classier* Chinese rests. do that in the UK, they make an effort to
educate or promote more authentic Chinese dishes to customers. I've also
noticed that these rests. have better English speaking managers/head waiters
who would take the time to explain the menu if asked. Some even have their
Chinese only home cooked styled menus written out in English... & i have to
ask the waiter if this dish is the same one on the Chinese menu.... because
some dishes have fancy Chinese names & you simply can't translate that into
English... goes to show you can't win em all ; )

But in general, I guess a large portion of their business are regular
customers who are only interested in sweet & sour & blackbean sauce dishes.
We can only hope that authentic Chinese food will take off like Thai food
after tourism to Thailand hit an all time high 10 or so years ago. We now
have Thai food (although not neccessary the best quality but still better
then nothing) in pubs & bars in the UK. Funny that... *exotic* food/cuisine
seems to be inextricably(sp?) linked to drinks/alcohol here in the UK...
probably due to the fact that people can now fly to Asia rather cheaply, get
a beach holiday, get drunk cheaply & have tasty local food.

Oh another thing... food in China can vary from region to region & from
countryside to cities. So not everything is appealing to the western eye &
taste buds. For example i had local river fish in a streetside cafe in
Canton, sure the sauce was tasty but the fish tasted muddy, i.e. taste of
the river, not fishy as in a stale old fish but muddy. The same dish in a
expensive restaurant tasted great. The reason being they kept their fishes
in runing water tanks which adorn the restaurant's entrance & this *washed
out* the muddy river taste after a few days to a week.

again my 2 chopstix worth of commentary.

DC.

"ggull" > wrote
> "DC." > wrote ...
>>... i've done a bit of research into this, Chinese
>> men were expected to travel & look for work, some went overseas to earn
>> money & send money back to family in China/Asia. Once settled in new
>> pastures, they would or might consider bringing the wife/women or family
>> over.
> Unfortunately, in the US this was not legal for many years, from early on
> up to post-WWI.
Whups ... I meant post-WWII, somewhere around 1950. Largely, only men were
allowed to immigrate, and as time went on under growing restrictions, and
developed a "batchelor society". The movie and novel "Eat a Bowl of Tea"
were based on this scenario.