This came as a surprise to me although it may be well known to others
here. A friend who knows someone working at a winery in NZ said that
he was told that this winery was fermenting PN in oak barrels. As this
was second-hand information, something might have been lost in
translation but, as it was described to me, the PN fermentation is
started in large tanks but, prior to complete fermentation, the liquid
is transferred to oak barrels, leaving behind the skins and seeds, and
the fermentation is allowed to run to completion. I didn't think to
ask whether the wine is then aged in the same barrels and if the yeast
is left with the wine.

I have never heard of anything like this being done to make a (truly)
red wine, i.e. excluding rosés and things like white zins. Is this
something that I have somehow missed or is it indeed an uncommon thing
to do?

Vino
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Vino > wrote in message >. ..
> This came as a surprise to me although it may be well known to others
> here. A friend who knows someone working at a winery in NZ said that
> he was told that this winery was fermenting PN in oak barrels. As this
> was second-hand information, something might have been lost in
> translation but, as it was described to me, the PN fermentation is
> started in large tanks but, prior to complete fermentation, the liquid
> is transferred to oak barrels, leaving behind the skins and seeds, and
> the fermentation is allowed to run to completion. I didn't think to
> ask whether the wine is then aged in the same barrels and if the yeast
> is left with the wine.
>
> I have never heard of anything like this being done to make a (truly)
> red wine, i.e. excluding rosés and things like white zins. Is this
> something that I have somehow missed or is it indeed an uncommon thing
> to do?
>
> Vino

Although barrel fermentation is more often associated with white
wines, it is not unknown for reds and from what I've read is fairly
common in Australia - maybe somebody from there can tell us if that's
true. And secondary (malolactic) fermentation *usually* happens in
the barrel.

- Mark W.

"Mark Willstatter" > wrote in message
om...
> Vino > wrote in message
>. ..
> > This came as a surprise to me although it may be well known to others
> > here. A friend who knows someone working at a winery in NZ said that
> > he was told that this winery was fermenting PN in oak barrels. As this
> > was second-hand information, something might have been lost in
> > translation but, as it was described to me, the PN fermentation is
> > started in large tanks but, prior to complete fermentation, the liquid
> > is transferred to oak barrels, leaving behind the skins and seeds, and
> > the fermentation is allowed to run to completion. I didn't think to
> > ask whether the wine is then aged in the same barrels and if the yeast
> > is left with the wine.

I'd like to know that too. I've never made Pinot Noir that way, and doubt
that I would - but it might be right one year. I'm keeping my options open.

I like the idea of racking to barrel a little "dirty". That means including
the light lees - perhaps not what you thought of when I said "dirty". ;^)

> > I have never heard of anything like this being done to make a (truly)
> > red wine, i.e. excluding rosés and things like white zins. Is this
> > something that I have somehow missed or is it indeed an uncommon thing
> > to do?

I'd venture to say that this is fairly _uncommon_ practice with Pinot Noir,
which tends to struggle to achieve significant color - even in good
vintages. The skin contact is sometimes prolonged _past_ dryness prior to
pressing, and often also at the beginning, prior to inoculation (cold
soaking).

> Although barrel fermentation is more often associated with white
> wines, it is not unknown for reds and from what I've read is fairly
> common in Australia - maybe somebody from there can tell us if that's
> true. And secondary (malolactic) fermentation *usually* happens in
> the barrel.

That is common to both red and white wines. Optimum is to get most of that
done before going into barrel (reds). Those of us who barrel ferment whites
have little choice in this matter, except to use lysozyme - a practice I
eschew, but don't condemn.

(I've tasted _great_ non-ML Chardonnay, but I'd be nervous about making one.
It's not worth the headache.)

Tom S

Tom S wrote:

> (I've tasted _great_ non-ML Chardonnay, but I'd be nervous about making one.
> It's not worth the headache.)

I've had a few really nice non-ML Chards, and it's clearly something
the winemaker really has to get dialed-in on through experience.

Flowers and El Molino are two examples that spring to mind of
delightful non-ML Cal Chards. I recently had an '02 El Molino
Chard from a 375ml, something Reg Oliver brought as a treat
to a gathering, and it was a sharp reminder that the
right fruit and right winemaker's touch can yield stellar
results. Getting reasonably ripe fruit with exactly the
right acid balance up-front and preserving that balance
throughout vinification seems to be the trick.

Another non-ML Cal Chard I think of is Scott Chafen's
Dutch Henry; it can be *really* pretty stuff in the right
year.

The more I think about it, it's sort of ironic how well
Cal Chard can lend itself to non-ML and yet how fixated
the wineries seem to be on buttery confections.

Dana

"Dana Myers" > wrote in message news:40949831$1@wobble...
> The more I think about it, it's sort of ironic how well
> Cal Chard can lend itself to non-ML and yet how fixated
> the wineries seem to be on buttery confections.

Wait a minute. It's entirely possible to have a Chardonnay go full ML and
_not_ display any particularly noticeable diacetyl. If the wine is on its
lees and stirred occasionally the butter disappears - or so I'm told.

And so I've tasted.

Tom S

"Dana Myers" > wrote in message news:40949831$1@wobble...
> Tom S wrote:
>
> > (I've tasted _great_ non-ML Chardonnay, but I'd be nervous about making
one.
> > It's not worth the headache.)
>
> I've had a few really nice non-ML Chards, and it's clearly something
> the winemaker really has to get dialed-in on through experience.
>
> Flowers and El Molino are two examples that spring to mind of
> delightful non-ML Cal Chards. I recently had an '02 El Molino
> Chard from a 375ml, something Reg Oliver brought as a treat
> to a gathering, and it was a sharp reminder that the
> right fruit and right winemaker's touch can yield stellar
> results. Getting reasonably ripe fruit with exactly the
> right acid balance up-front and preserving that balance
> throughout vinification seems to be the trick.
>
> Another non-ML Cal Chard I think of is Scott Chafen's
> Dutch Henry; it can be *really* pretty stuff in the right
> year.
>
> The more I think about it, it's sort of ironic how well
> Cal Chard can lend itself to non-ML and yet how fixated
> the wineries seem to be on buttery confections.
>
> Dana


Here's a list of some Cal Chards w/o malo (and a couple of related
articles):
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl....DTL&type=wine
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl....DTL&type=wine
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl....DTL&type=wine

>
>
>I like the idea of racking to barrel a little "dirty". That means including
>the light lees - perhaps not what you thought of when I said "dirty". ;^)
>
>> > I have never heard of anything like this being done to make a (truly)
>> > red wine, i.e. excluding rosés and things like white zins. Is this
>> > something that I have somehow missed or is it indeed an uncommon thing
>> > to do?
>
>I'd venture to say that this is fairly _uncommon_ practice with Pinot Noir,
>which tends to struggle to achieve significant color - even in good
>vintages. The skin contact is sometimes prolonged _past_ dryness prior to
>pressing, and often also at the beginning, prior to inoculation (cold
>soaking).
>
>> Although barrel fermentation is more often associated with white
>> wines, it is not unknown for reds and from what I've read is fairly
>> common in Australia - maybe somebody from there can tell us if that's
>> true. And secondary (malolactic) fermentation *usually* happens in
>> the barrel.
>

I know that several winemakers here in California rack their Syrah to barrel
before the primary fermantation is completely through, and that this is in
emulation of practice in Australia. As far as I know it's not widely practiced
here - I don't know how extensive that practice is in Australia. But I've never
heard of this being done with Pinot Noir before.

Tom S wrote:

> Wait a minute. It's entirely possible to have a Chardonnay go full ML and
> _not_ display any particularly noticeable diacetyl. If the wine is on its
> lees and stirred occasionally the butter disappears - or so I'm told.
>
> And so I've tasted.

Obviously, we can't argue over what's actually in the glass, but
I can't help but believe that once a flavor component is in a
wine, it stays there unless it's somehow removed. If an ML
fermentation produces diacetyl, then the flavor will be present.
Perhaps it's the case that the lees are used to remove the diacetyl
in a kind of fining? Perhaps also the specific Chardonnay clones
that are used have an impact as well.

Dana

"Dana Myers" > wrote in message news:40965f8c$1@wobble...
> Obviously, we can't argue over what's actually in the glass, but
> I can't help but believe that once a flavor component is in a
> wine, it stays there unless it's somehow removed. If an ML
> fermentation produces diacetyl, then the flavor will be present.
> Perhaps it's the case that the lees are used to remove the diacetyl
> in a kind of fining?

According to my reading, diacetyl production and retention thereof in ML
fermentation is enhanced by (1) conducting the ML fermentation _after_ the
alcoholic fermentation, as opposed to concurrently, and (2) the absence of
yeast and ML lees during aging. Conversely of course, to permit ML to occur
while minimizing the production and retention of diacetyl one does the
opposite: ML fermentation simultaneously with the alcoholic fermentation,
and sur lie aging.

Perhaps also the specific Chardonnay clones
> that are used have an impact as well.

Apparently so - but in a less direct manner than I inferred from your
comment. Some clones of Chardonnay evidently tend to produce a higher ratio
of malic to tartaric acid than others. The Martini clone may run up to ~40%
malic (of the total acid present), whereas the Dijon clone may be only 10%
malic. Guess which one is capable of more profound butteriness? Of course
those numbers are approximate, and may well represent extremes between warm
climate Martini and cool climate Dijon clones, but you get the idea.

Tom S

Dana Myers > wrote in message news:<40965f8c$1@wobble>...
> Tom S wrote:
>
> > Wait a minute. It's entirely possible to have a Chardonnay go full ML and
> > _not_ display any particularly noticeable diacetyl. If the wine is on its
> > lees and stirred occasionally the butter disappears - or so I'm told.
> >
> > And so I've tasted.
>
> Obviously, we can't argue over what's actually in the glass, but
> I can't help but believe that once a flavor component is in a
> wine, it stays there unless it's somehow removed. If an ML
> fermentation produces diacetyl, then the flavor will be present.
> Perhaps it's the case that the lees are used to remove the diacetyl
> in a kind of fining? Perhaps also the specific Chardonnay clones
> that are used have an impact as well.
>
> Dana

It's my understanding that if you let the ML bacteria keep going after
all the malic acid has been consumed, they will metabolize the
diacetyl as well and "butteriness" is correspondingly decreased.
Winemakers who want to maximize diacetyl jack up the sulfites as soon
all the malic acid is gone. FWIW, Sierra Vista (El Dorado County)
makes a nice no-oak, no-MLF Chardonnay that should be available for
$12 or so.

- Mark W.