I'm trying to figure out why NYC bagels are so much better than those
in other parts of the country. Anyone have a suggestion about what
kind of flour to use?

Josh

Josh Meyer wrote:

>I'm trying to figure out why NYC bagels are so much better than those
>in other parts of the country. Anyone have a suggestion about what
>kind of flour to use?
>

High gluten bread flour or the addition of 10% vital gluten to A/P flour.=


If you are not using commercial quantities, check King Arthur Com

But in other parts of the country, they forget to boil the bagels before =

baking too.

--=20
Sincerly,

C=3D=A6-)=A7 H. W. Hans Kuntze, CMC, S.g.K. (_o_)
http://www.cmcchef.com ,
"Don't cry because it's over, Smile because it Happened"
_/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/=20

In article >,
"H. W. Hans Kuntze" > wrote:

> Josh Meyer wrote:
>
> >I'm trying to figure out why NYC bagels are so much better than those
> >in other parts of the country. Anyone have a suggestion about what
> >kind of flour to use?
> >
>
> High gluten bread flour or the addition of 10% vital gluten to A/P flour.
>
> If you are not using commercial quantities, check King Arthur Com
>
> But in other parts of the country, they forget to boil the bagels before
> baking too.

It's not forgetting, Hans, they don't know to do it. We walked into a
bagel place here in Seattle a few months ago and noticed the bagels
looked a little puffy. When we asked the kid behind the counter whether
the bagels were boiled before baking he looked at us as if we were from
Mars.

Cindy

--
C.J. Fuller

Return address to the present tense to email me

On 8 Nov 2003 at 16:30, Cindy Fuller wrote:

> In article >,
> "H. W. Hans Kuntze" > wrote:

> > But in other parts of the country, they forget to boil the bagels
> > before baking too.

> It's not forgetting, Hans, they don't know to do it. We walked into a
> bagel place here in Seattle a few months ago and noticed the bagels
> looked a little puffy. When we asked the kid behind the counter
> whether the bagels were boiled before baking he looked at us as if we
> were from Mars.

No, it's worse than that. They don't want to boil the bagels. Many
people don't like things they have to chew, to struggle to eat. The
found that if they don't boil the bagels, they rise up more, they are
lighter, and they aren't chewy.

Of course, at this point the also aren't really bagels. At least, not
authentic bagels. But they may be more popular bagels.

Mike
--
Mike Avery

ICQ: 16241692 AOL IM:MAvery81230
Phone: 970-642-0280
* Spam is for lusers who can't get business any other
way *

Once seen on road signs all over the United States:
Tho stiff
The beard
That Nature gave
It shaves
Like down with
Burma-Shave

Mike Avery wrote:

> On 8 Nov 2003 at 16:30, Cindy Fuller wrote:
>
>
>>In article >,
>> "H. W. Hans Kuntze" > wrote:
>
>
>>>But in other parts of the country, they forget to boil the bagels
>>>before baking too.
>
>
>
>>It's not forgetting, Hans, they don't know to do it. We walked into a
>>bagel place here in Seattle a few months ago and noticed the bagels
>>looked a little puffy. When we asked the kid behind the counter
>>whether the bagels were boiled before baking he looked at us as if we
>>were from Mars.
>
>
> No, it's worse than that. They don't want to boil the bagels. Many
> people don't like things they have to chew, to struggle to eat. The
> found that if they don't boil the bagels, they rise up more, they are
> lighter, and they aren't chewy.
>
> Of course, at this point the also aren't really bagels. At least, not
> authentic bagels. But they may be more popular bagels.
>
> Mike

Well, there is another reason that I can fathom. The "real" bagels
provide a slicing problem. Too, hard and too likely to cut their palms.
They should go back to eating doughnuts and Costco sized muffins.

--
Alan

"If you reject the food, ignore the customs, fear the religion, and
avoid the people, you might better stay home."
--James Michener

"Mike Avery" > writes:

>From: "Mike Avery" >
>To:
>Date: Sat, 08 Nov 2003 11:08:11 -0700
>Subject: flour choice for bagels?
>Newsgroups: rec.food.baking
>
>On 8 Nov 2003 at 16:30, Cindy Fuller wrote:
>>
>> "H. W. Hans Kuntze" > wrote:
>> >
>> > But in other parts of the country, they forget to boil the bagels
>> > before baking too.
>
>> It's not forgetting, Hans, they don't know to do it. We walked into a
>> bagel place here in Seattle a few months ago and noticed the bagels
>> looked a little puffy. When we asked the kid behind the counter
>> whether the bagels were boiled before baking he looked at us as if we
>> were from Mars.
>
>No, it's worse than that. They don't want to boil the bagels. Many
>people don't like things they have to chew, to struggle to eat. The
>found that if they don't boil the bagels, they rise up more, they are
>lighter, and they aren't chewy.
>
>Of course, at this point the also aren't really bagels. At least, not
>authentic bagels. But they may be more popular bagels.

Unfortunately, this is true. Bread-like bagels have become part of the
American scene. Fifteen years ago, if you were not in a major urban
area, you might -- if you were lucky -- find some pre-packaged frozen
bagels at the supermarket. Today, the product is ubiquitous and has
become something of a sandwich bun with a hole in the middle.

The national chains and franchises have perfected the bready bagel and
the average consumer has been fooled into believing that this is what
a bagel should feel like. I have nothing against this mass-market
product but, just because it has a hole in the middle, does not make
it a bagel.

I recall bagels from my childhood which were so chewy that you could
hardly bite them. And they would go stale very, very fast because
they were made without shortening or preservatives.

When my son was a baby, he used to go with me to the House of Bagels
in San Francisco and the woman behind the counter would always give
him a tiny "cocktail bagel" to teethe on.

(BTW, vis-a-vis that other thread about bakery naming, the House of
Bagels' name wasn't that unusual, but it had a slogan on its sign:
"When is a seagull not a seagull... When it's a bay gull!" Oy!)

As my son got older, he used to enjoy peering in through the side
door and watching the bakers taking trays of uncooked bagels from
racks where they had been rising and sliding the bagels into vats
of boiling water. They'd rise to the surface of the water, be
lifted out with a skimmer, and placed on baking sheets to go into
the ovens.

Over the years, I've seen many gadgets for slicing bagels. My
grandmother had this plastic thing which could be screwed down
to a counter or bread board -- but more likely was just kept in
a kitchen drawer. It opened like a vertical clamshell, the bagel
was held inside by pressing on the sides of the clamshell, and
a sharp kitchen knife was used to cut the bagel in half.

New materials technology has blessed humankind with today's simple
and functional "Bagel Biter" which uses structural plastics and
a stiff coated-steel scalloped edge blade to guillotine bagels
in a single motion. http://www.larien.com/biter.html

I've only made bagels on a couple of occassions. It's hard to
justify the effort when one lives close to a first-class
commerical bagel bakery (which I do here in the Boston area.)
I recall, however, that adding malt to the boiling water was
important for developing an authentic bagel crust. And, I had
good luck with bread flour to which some additional gluten
had been added.

And, Mike, we're frequent visitors to Colorado and I recall
buying commercial packages of bagels from the Rocky Mountain
Bagel Company at Costco in Denver a couple of years ago -- and
thinking that these ranked among the best commercial bagels. I
think they were properly made with malted water. Unfortunately,
last time I was in Denver, I could not find these and I suspect
that the baking company has not survived.

Finally, just for fun, check out the Boston bagel FAQ at:
http://www.boston-online.com/bagels.html

Cheers,
The Old Bear

The Old Bear wrote:

> [...]
>
>When my son was a baby, he used to go with me to the House of Bagels=20
>in San Francisco and the woman behind the counter would always give=20
>him a tiny "cocktail bagel" to teethe on.
>
>(BTW, vis-a-vis that other thread about bakery naming, the House of=20
>Bagels' name wasn't that unusual, but it had a slogan on its sign:=20
>"When is a seagull not a seagull... When it's a bay gull!" Oy!)
>
Yup Bear, quite good, at least 8 years ago and so were the Schmiers.

AFAIR they were in the vicinity of Polk & Geary up towards California=20
and used to be a regular treat in our office when I ran a training=20
program for UAW out of the old Jack Tar, then Cathedral Hill Hotel, now=20
something else, on Van Ness & Geary.

I don't think that any city can beat SF, as far as the food is=20
concerned. Too bad I moved into this forsaken hellhole.
All you have to do is check the bread isles in the Supermarkets and=20
count the number of junkfood places if you want to know what people eat=20
in any given city.

--=20
Sincerly,

C=3D=A6-)=A7 H. W. Hans Kuntze, CMC, S.g.K. (_o_)
http://www.cmcchef.com ,
"Don't cry because it's over, Smile because it Happened"
_/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/=20

The Old Bear wrote:

>
>
> Unfortunately, this is true. Bread-like bagels have become part of the
> American scene. Fifteen years ago, if you were not in a major urban
> area, you might -- if you were lucky -- find some pre-packaged frozen
> bagels at the supermarket. Today, the product is ubiquitous and has
> become something of a sandwich bun with a hole in the middle.
>
> The national chains and franchises have perfected the bready bagel and
> the average consumer has been fooled into believing that this is what
> a bagel should feel like. I have nothing against this mass-market
> product but, just because it has a hole in the middle, does not make
> it a bagel.
>
> I recall bagels from my childhood which were so chewy that you could
> hardly bite them. And they would go stale very, very fast because
> they were made without shortening or preservatives.
>
> When my son was a baby, he used to go with me to the House of Bagels
> in San Francisco and the woman behind the counter would always give
> him a tiny "cocktail bagel" to teethe on.
>
> (BTW, vis-a-vis that other thread about bakery naming, the House of
> Bagels' name wasn't that unusual, but it had a slogan on its sign:
> "When is a seagull not a seagull... When it's a bay gull!" Oy!)
>
> As my son got older, he used to enjoy peering in through the side
> door and watching the bakers taking trays of uncooked bagels from
> racks where they had been rising and sliding the bagels into vats
> of boiling water. They'd rise to the surface of the water, be
> lifted out with a skimmer, and placed on baking sheets to go into
> the ovens.
>
> Over the years, I've seen many gadgets for slicing bagels. My
> grandmother had this plastic thing which could be screwed down
> to a counter or bread board -- but more likely was just kept in
> a kitchen drawer. It opened like a vertical clamshell, the bagel
> was held inside by pressing on the sides of the clamshell, and
> a sharp kitchen knife was used to cut the bagel in half.
>
> New materials technology has blessed humankind with today's simple
> and functional "Bagel Biter" which uses structural plastics and
> a stiff coated-steel scalloped edge blade to guillotine bagels
> in a single motion. http://www.larien.com/biter.html
>
> I've only made bagels on a couple of occassions. It's hard to
> justify the effort when one lives close to a first-class
> commerical bagel bakery (which I do here in the Boston area.)
> I recall, however, that adding malt to the boiling water was
> important for developing an authentic bagel crust. And, I had
> good luck with bread flour to which some additional gluten
> had been added.
>
> And, Mike, we're frequent visitors to Colorado and I recall
> buying commercial packages of bagels from the Rocky Mountain
> Bagel Company at Costco in Denver a couple of years ago -- and
> thinking that these ranked among the best commercial bagels. I
> think they were properly made with malted water. Unfortunately,
> last time I was in Denver, I could not find these and I suspect
> that the baking company has not survived.
>
> Finally, just for fun, check out the Boston bagel FAQ at:
> http://www.boston-online.com/bagels.html
>
> Cheers,
> The Old Bear
>
American business has a knack of coming up with trendy breakfast foods
to mass produce. First it was doughnuts. Then it was muffins. Then
bagels and now back to doughnuts again.

For the most part, bagels still remain an ethnic based food. Just a fact
of life.

For those trying to understand what constitutes a good bagel, I should
point out that there is one exception to the boil all bagel rule. In my
youth, misspent and otherwise, egg bagels were not normally first
boiled. This includes quite a few good spots in Jersey, Brooklyn and
Manhattan.

--
Alan

"If you reject the food, ignore the customs, fear the religion, and
avoid the people, you might better stay home."
--James Michener

"Mike Avery" > writes:

> From: "Mike Avery" >
> Date: Sat, 08 Nov 2003 11:08:11 -0700
> subject: flour choice for bagels?
> Newsgroups: rec.food.baking
>
> On 8 Nov 2003 at 16:30, Cindy Fuller wrote:
> >
> > H. W. Hans Kuntze > wrote:
> > >
> > > But in other parts of the country, they forget to boil the bagels
> > > before baking too.
> >
> > It's not forgetting, Hans, they don't know to do it. We walked into a
> > bagel place here in Seattle a few months ago and noticed the bagels
> > looked a little puffy. When we asked the kid behind the counter
> > whether the bagels were boiled before baking he looked at us as if we
> > were from Mars.
>
> No, it's worse than that. They don't want to boil the bagels. Many
> people don't like things they have to chew, to struggle to eat. The
> found that if they don't boil the bagels, they rise up more, they are
> lighter, and they aren't chewy.
>
> Of course, at this point the also aren't really bagels. At least, not
> authentic bagels. But they may be more popular bagels.


In a response to Mike's posting (above), I previously responded
in rec.food.baking:

} Newsgroups: rec.food.baking
} From: (The Old Bear)
} Subject: flour choice for bagels?
} Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2003 17:57:18 -0500
}
} "Mike Avery" > writes:
} >
} >No, it's worse than that. They don't want to boil the bagels. Many
} >people don't like things they have to chew, to struggle to eat. The
} >found that if they don't boil the bagels, they rise up more, they are
} >lighter, and they aren't chewy.
} . . .
} And, Mike, we're frequent visitors to Colorado and I recall
} buying commercial packages of bagels from the Rocky Mountain
} Bagel Company at Costco in Denver a couple of years ago -- and
} thinking that these ranked among the best commercial bagels. I
} think they were properly made with malted water. Unfortunately,
} last time I was in Denver, I could not find these and I suspect
} that the baking company has not survived.

Well, we just returned from the Thanksgiving holiday in Denver and
discovered that the local Costco is now making their own big, puffy,
bready, in-store baked bagels -- but also had bags of small "cocktail
bagels" made by the Rocky Mtn. Bagel Factory -- which is the trade
name use by Ace Baking Company of Denver.

I brought too bags of these little bagels back to the east coast
with me.

Their crust not quite as hard as one might like, but they're reasonably
chewy and have excellent flavor. The ingredients listed on the package
a

High gluten flour, water, sugar, salt, malted barley flour,
calcium propiontat, yeast, mono-diglycerides, wheat gluten,
ascorbic acid, calcium sulfate, dextrose, enzyme, yellow
corn meal.

Note the use of high-gluten flour *and* added gluten. Also the malted
barley (which is both food for the yeast and adds to the flavor). The
ascorbic acid also helps the yeast and the corn meal is probably used
to keep the bagels from sticking to the baking equipment. (The
glycerides are for texture and moisture; the calcium proprionate
discourages spoilage due to mold growing on the finished product; the
enzyme is a dough conditioner.)

I checked the web and discovered that Ace Baking in Denver was acquired
in March of last year by Harlan Bakers of Indianapolis, Indiana. (See:
http://www.harlanbakeries.com/march2002.htm ) Harlan is a high-speed
manufacturer of "authentic bagels and pita bread" and manufactures
a number of wholesale products including par baked and raw dough bagels.
Harlan manufactures for its own retail labels and for the Einstein/Noah
Bagel chains and McDonalds.

I'm not sure how much the Rocky Mountain Bagel Factory product
formulation is unique to Ace Baking in Denver. In my opinion, it is
different than the Einstein product. (I confess to never having
tried the bagels at McDonalds and to avoiding the packages of frozen
bagels sold at supermarkets.)

Harlan recognizes that the chewy "New York bagel" is a different beast
than the bread-like soft bagel. Each occupies a different niche in the
marketplace. See: http://www.harlanbakeries.com/bagels_ny.htm and
http://www.harlanbakeries.com/bagels_soft.htm

Next time I am in Denver, I may try to visit the Ace Baking facility.
I'd be curious how they've modified their recipe and process for baking
at Denver's 5280 foot (1610 meters) altitude.

Cheers,
The Old Bear

Yes, you will need a high gluten flour. Rumor has it the taste/texture from
a New York Bagel is because they are boiled in NY city water.

tgt


"Josh Meyer" > wrote in message
om...
> I'm trying to figure out why NYC bagels are so much better than those
> in other parts of the country. Anyone have a suggestion about what
> kind of flour to use?
>
> Josh

Far as I can tell, someone wrote:
>I'm trying to figure out why NYC bagels are so much better than those
>in other parts of the country. Anyone have a suggestion about what
>kind of flour to use?

High gluten, unbleached, unbromated flour. I use Knoxbridge and love
it.

There are great bagels to be found in many many places. I've had them
in Florida and in California and lots of other places over the years.
Boiled or steamed, done correctly, they can be great.

The biggest issue is that most people from outside the New York area
don't know a bagel from Wonderbread, so they just buy what's in the
basket. The same holds true for Kaiser rolls, french and italian breads
and lots more.

In many areas, most people buy their "fresh baked bread" from Wal-Mart,
where absolutely everything feels and tastes like a week old hotdog
roll.

As far as the "it's the water" issue, that's just a rumor kicked around
by people who have perhaps tasted good bagels and know nothing else
about them. "Oh yeah, must be the water..., makes sense to me."

Nevermind that the baker adds 50% more yeast for free volume and uses
the cheapest flour available, and that he learned to bake from the
owners nephew who hated working there and now sits in an office cubicle
trying to dart pencils in the ceiling tiles.

"Gee, Mr. Scruggs, these bagels aren't as good as the ones I bought in
New York..."

"Well, I make 'em the same, Bubba, it's jes that the goldang water here
is different. Cain't be hay-elped."

I even once heard of "some great bagel shop in West Palm Beach where
they truck their water in from New York, just to make great bagels."
Sure, and they sell for $1.98 each, right?

Dave

I know that several bagel places around here ("Here" being
Chatham-Summit-Millburn, NJ) which make great bagels use General Mills All
Trumps flour. I assume that you could do the same with just about any bread
flour. If you need a flour like this is commercial quantities, call a local
restaurant supply house or wholesale grocer. A lot of them will allow you
to buy from them is you don't get in the way.

I know that Dawn Foods in Edison, NJ, has a Will Call arrangement. You call
up, tell them what you want and when you want it. They get it ready for
you, you pay for it and load it in your car. I assume that other sources
have similar arrangements. I can buy 50 pounds of All Trumps or Harvest
King for around $12.

Barry

"Josh Meyer" > wrote in message
om...
> I'm trying to figure out why NYC bagels are so much better than those
> in other parts of the country. Anyone have a suggestion about what
> kind of flour to use?
>
> Josh

"barry" > wrote in message
t...
> I know that several bagel places around here ("Here" being
> Chatham-Summit-Millburn, NJ) which make great bagels use General Mills All
> Trumps flour. I assume that you could do the same with just about any
bread
> flour. If you need a flour like this is commercial quantities, call a
local
> restaurant supply house or wholesale grocer. A lot of them will allow you
> to buy from them is you don't get in the way.
>
> I know that Dawn Foods in Edison, NJ, has a Will Call arrangement. You
call
> up, tell them what you want and when you want it. They get it ready for
> you, you pay for it and load it in your car. I assume that other sources
> have similar arrangements. I can buy 50 pounds of All Trumps or Harvest
> King for around $12.
>

Our Costco sells the All Trumps flour and I believe that I have seen it at
Sam's Club also.

> Our Costco sells the All Trumps flour and I believe that I have seen it at
> Sam's Club also.
>
I sure wish my Costco sold it. All I can find at our Costco, Hanover, NJ,
is a "Bread flour" that has a gluten/protein of 10-11%.

Barry

"barry" > wrote in
:

>> Our Costco sells the All Trumps flour and I believe that I have seen
>> it at Sam's Club also.
>>
> I sure wish my Costco sold it. All I can find at our Costco, Hanover,
> NJ, is a "Bread flour" that has a gluten/protein of 10-11%.
>
> Barry
>
>
>

If you can find All Trumps... this is the best I have found for a great
robust flavor and has protein level of 14%. Puros has a will call ability,
and so does Dawn Foods. Most suppliers are willing to sell to the public
now a days due to the lagging economy. If you can't find a supplier, go to
GM website and ask them for a lead.

http://www.generalmills.com/gmflour/home.asp

Jean Scott

barry wrote:
>>Our Costco sells the All Trumps flour and I believe that I have seen it at
>>Sam's Club also.
>>
>
> I sure wish my Costco sold it. All I can find at our Costco, Hanover, NJ,
> is a "Bread flour" that has a gluten/protein of 10-11%.
>
> Barry
>
>
And probably bleached, too.
--
Alan

"If you reject the food, ignore the customs, fear the religion, and
avoid the people, you might better stay home."
--James Michener

In article >,
"barry" > wrote:

> > Our Costco sells the All Trumps flour and I believe that I have seen it at
> > Sam's Club also.
> >
> I sure wish my Costco sold it. All I can find at our Costco, Hanover, NJ,
> is a "Bread flour" that has a gluten/protein of 10-11%.
>

That's about the level of protein that the regular King Arthur flour
has. KA sells a Sir Lancelot bread flour that's over 14% gluten, and
they recommend using a heavy duty mixer to knead it so the full gluten
potential is developed.

Cindy

--
C.J. Fuller

Return address to the present tense to email me

Cindy Fuller wrote:

> In article >,
> "barry" > wrote:
>
>
>>>Our Costco sells the All Trumps flour and I believe that I have seen it at
>>>Sam's Club also.
>>>
>>
>>I sure wish my Costco sold it. All I can find at our Costco, Hanover, NJ,
>>is a "Bread flour" that has a gluten/protein of 10-11%.
>>
>
>
> That's about the level of protein that the regular King Arthur flour
> has. KA sells a Sir Lancelot bread flour that's over 14% gluten, and
> they recommend using a heavy duty mixer to knead it so the full gluten
> potential is developed.
>
> Cindy
>
Cindy,

Take a short drive to Whole Foods. WheatMontana is higher protein level
than Sir L. AND, it is priced much, much lower, too.
--
Alan

"If you reject the food, ignore the customs, fear the religion, and
avoid the people, you might better stay home."
--James Michener

On Wed, 05 Nov 2003 23:34:16 GMT, "barry" >
wrote:

>I know that several bagel places around here ("Here" being
>Chatham-Summit-Millburn, NJ) which make great bagels use General Mills All
>Trumps flour. I assume that you could do the same with just about any bread
>flour. If you need a flour like this is commercial quantities, call a local
>restaurant supply house or wholesale grocer. A lot of them will allow you
>to buy from them is you don't get in the way.
>
>I know that Dawn Foods in Edison, NJ, has a Will Call arrangement. You call
>up, tell them what you want and when you want it. They get it ready for
>you, you pay for it and load it in your car. I assume that other sources
>have similar arrangements. I can buy 50 pounds of All Trumps or Harvest
>King for around $12.
>
>Barry
>
The GM web site lists versions of ALL Trumps, both bromated &
unbromated. It is an interesting page with specs for their bakers'
flours.

http://www.generalmills.com/gmflour/...=ESpring#50111

Boron

I've been using this site for a couple of years now. As far as I know, it's
the only flour web site that lists the spec sheet for a company's flours. A
lot of companies make claims for their flour, but this is the only spec
sheet I've seen.

Barry

> The GM web site lists versions of ALL Trumps, both bromated &
> unbromated. It is an interesting page with specs for their bakers'
> flours.
>
> http://www.generalmills.com/gmflour/...=ESpring#50111
>
> Boron

Josh Meyer wrote:
> I'm trying to figure out why NYC bagels are so much better than those
> in other parts of the country. Anyone have a suggestion about what
> kind of flour to use?
>
> Josh

Not difficult to choose. ALWAYS choose a very high gluten flour (or add
gluten to lower gluten flour). I always use WheatMontana, the very
highest gluten available flour (I believe) in the States. Check out
their website for store nearest you. http://www.wheatmontana.com/

--
Alan

"If you reject the food, ignore the customs, fear the religion, and
avoid the people, you might better stay home."
--James Michener

Third or fourth patent flour produced in split run milling when they take
top patent (all purpose). It is higher in gluten content. Also the amount
of diastatic malt flour added for enzyme activity. Check the falling
number.

"Josh Meyer" > wrote in message
om...
> I'm trying to figure out why NYC bagels are so much better than those
> in other parts of the country. Anyone have a suggestion about what
> kind of flour to use?
>
> Josh