I'm hoping someone can answer a question making bread dough (and pizza
dough and such). I'm using a Kitchen Aid stand mixer as I am disabled and
cannot mix and knead by hand. The instructions generally say to start with
3/4 of the flour and all of the liquid and mix for a minute or so. Then add
flour "until the dough forms a ball and cleans the sides of the bowl. Then
knead for two minutes more". I can get it to the stage that the dough forms
a ball on the dough hook and cleans the sides of the bowl all right
but,oftentimes, before two minutes are up, the ball of dough will slump and
stick at the bottom center of the mixer bowl. Adding more flour will cause
the ball to re-form on the hook but I may have to do this several times
going well over the amount of flour called for in the recipe. I understand
that the amount of flour will vary somewhat due to weather and the whims of
the kitchen gods but surely should not exceed upper limits of the recipe.
Whadda ya think I'm doin' wrong? By the way, I measure the flour by weight
in grams.

--


Ken

Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.

"Ken Ortmann" > wrote in message
...
> I'm hoping someone can answer a question making bread dough (and pizza
> dough and such). I'm using a Kitchen Aid stand mixer as I am disabled and
> cannot mix and knead by hand. The instructions generally say to start with
> 3/4 of the flour and all of the liquid and mix for a minute or so. Then
add
> flour "until the dough forms a ball and cleans the sides of the bowl. Then
> knead for two minutes more". I can get it to the stage that the dough
forms
> a ball on the dough hook and cleans the sides of the bowl all right
> but,oftentimes, before two minutes are up, the ball of dough will slump
and
> stick at the bottom center of the mixer bowl. Adding more flour will cause
> the ball to re-form on the hook but I may have to do this several times
> going well over the amount of flour called for in the recipe. I understand
> that the amount of flour will vary somewhat due to weather and the whims
of
> the kitchen gods but surely should not exceed upper limits of the recipe.
> Whadda ya think I'm doin' wrong? By the way, I measure the flour by weight
> in grams.


You're not doing anything wrong. If the dough slumps down around the bottom
of the bowl like that, it means it can take some more flour. The exception
to this would be if you're making one of those really wet Italian style
bread doughs, in which case it's better not to add any more flour, so you
don't change the texture of the finished product. Flour amounts in
breadmaking are always approximate, and can vary widely. Good luck in your
bread endeavors.


-Scott

"Scott Taylor" > wrote in message
ink.net...
>
> "Ken Ortmann" > wrote in message
> ...
> > I'm hoping someone can answer a question making bread dough (and
pizza
> > dough and such). I'm using a Kitchen Aid stand mixer as I am disabled
and
> > cannot mix and knead by hand. The instructions generally say to start
with
> > 3/4 of the flour and all of the liquid and mix for a minute or so. Then
> add
> > flour "until the dough forms a ball and cleans the sides of the bowl.
Then
> > knead for two minutes more". I can get it to the stage that the dough
> forms
> > a ball on the dough hook and cleans the sides of the bowl all right
> > but,oftentimes, before two minutes are up, the ball of dough will slump
> and
> > stick at the bottom center of the mixer bowl. Adding more flour will
cause
> > the ball to re-form on the hook but I may have to do this several times
> > going well over the amount of flour called for in the recipe. I
understand
> > that the amount of flour will vary somewhat due to weather and the whims
> of
> > the kitchen gods but surely should not exceed upper limits of the
recipe.
> > Whadda ya think I'm doin' wrong? By the way, I measure the flour by
weight
> > in grams.
>
>
> You're not doing anything wrong. If the dough slumps down around the
bottom
> of the bowl like that, it means it can take some more flour. The
exception
> to this would be if you're making one of those really wet Italian style
> bread doughs, in which case it's better not to add any more flour, so you
> don't change the texture of the finished product. Flour amounts in
> breadmaking are always approximate, and can vary widely. Good luck in your
> bread endeavors.

I would agree with this. I don't bother to measure the flour unless I have
a specific requirement. I just estimate the flour and add the other
ingredients. If it takes more flour, then I add it. To be specific, I use
instant yeast, so I put all the dry ingredients in the bowl and slowly add
water. I stop when the dough looks right. If it slumps after from
kneading, I add more flour. It is all about the look and feel. Don't pay
too much attention to the amounts stated in the recipe. This is one case
where strict adherence to the formula isn't necessary. I presume that your
bread is satisfactory since you haven't mentioned any concerns with the
product.
>
>
> -Scott
>
>

"Ken Ortmann" > wrote in message
...
> I'm hoping someone can answer a question making bread dough (and pizza
> dough and such). I'm using a Kitchen Aid stand mixer as I am disabled and
> cannot mix and knead by hand. The instructions generally say to start with
> 3/4 of the flour and all of the liquid and mix for a minute or so. Then
add
> flour "until the dough forms a ball and cleans the sides of the bowl. Then
> knead for two minutes more". I can get it to the stage that the dough
forms
> a ball on the dough hook and cleans the sides of the bowl all right
> but,oftentimes, before two minutes are up, the ball of dough will slump
and
> stick at the bottom center of the mixer bowl. Adding more flour will cause
> the ball to re-form on the hook but I may have to do this several times
> going well over the amount of flour called for in the recipe. I understand
> that the amount of flour will vary somewhat due to weather and the whims
of
> the kitchen gods but surely should not exceed upper limits of the recipe.
> Whadda ya think I'm doin' wrong? By the way, I measure the flour by weight
> in grams.
>
> --
>
>
> Ken
>
> Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.
>

Couple of observations.

1. What you're seeing is a normal process. The dough picks up the water,
sort of on the surface, and looks like it's finished -- the dough clears the
side of the bowl and forms a nice dough. Then the flour gets wetted through
and the thing slumps a bit. Normal.

2. Be careful of what you or the recipe author use as equivalents. One of
the nasty little secrets of bread, and most other, cookbooks is that a lot
of the recipes aren't tested to perform as written. The other little secret
is that a cup ain't a cup. If you measure the flour, you should also
measure the water and do some calculation of baker's percentages.

If you are checking baker's percentages, use these as guidelines. 60% is
classic French bread. 65% is a tacky bread. 70% is pretty wet. 75% will
flow. 80% is a bear to work, and will require special handling. Obviously,
others have different guidelines and different doughs and local conditions
will lead to different conclusions, but if you start here, you at least have
an idea of what's going on.

So, how much flour and water does the recipe call for?

Barry

"Ken Ortmann" > wrote in message
...
> I'm hoping someone can answer a question making bread dough (and pizza
> dough and such). I'm using a Kitchen Aid stand mixer as I am disabled and
> cannot mix and knead by hand. The instructions generally say to start with
> 3/4 of the flour and all of the liquid and mix for a minute or so. Then
add
> flour "until the dough forms a ball and cleans the sides of the bowl. Then
> knead for two minutes more". I can get it to the stage that the dough
forms
> a ball on the dough hook and cleans the sides of the bowl all right
> but,oftentimes, before two minutes are up, the ball of dough will slump
and
> stick at the bottom center of the mixer bowl. Adding more flour will cause
> the ball to re-form on the hook but I may have to do this several times
> going well over the amount of flour called for in the recipe. I understand
> that the amount of flour will vary somewhat due to weather and the whims
of
> the kitchen gods but surely should not exceed upper limits of the recipe.
> Whadda ya think I'm doin' wrong? By the way, I measure the flour by weight
> in grams.
>
You are bound to get contradictory advice but when making bread dough, it is
always better to have a more moist rather than too stodgy a dough. If you
are weighing your ingredients by the gram, a standard bread dough should
have about 60g water for every 100g of flour. If you are baking the loaves
in tins, you could increase that to 65g of water. Ciabbata doughs are
really sloppy at over 70g of water to 100g flour. Yes, I know the weather
etc. will sometimes make a difference but I don't think that should bother
you too much.
Another trick is to just combine the flour and water and then let it stand
for about 20 minutes so that the flour can absorb the water. Then proceed
with the kneading, adding a bit of extra flour if you think it necessary.

HTH
Graham

On Thu, 20 Nov 2003 23:03:02 GMT, "Graham" > wrote:

>If you
>are weighing your ingredients by the gram, a standard bread dough should
>have about 60g water for every 100g of flour. If you are baking the loaves
>in tins, you could increase that to 65g of water. Ciabbata doughs are
>really sloppy at over 70g of water to 100g flour.

Hi Graham,

Of course, I respect your experience, but mine is certainly
different...

I regularly bake hearth loaves that are 72%. Each of the proportions
you mention are far lower in hydration than I would use for the
purposes you describe.

All the best,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

"Kenneth" > wrote in message
...
> On Thu, 20 Nov 2003 23:03:02 GMT, "Graham" > wrote:
>
> >If you
> >are weighing your ingredients by the gram, a standard bread dough should
> >have about 60g water for every 100g of flour. If you are baking the
loaves
> >in tins, you could increase that to 65g of water. Ciabbata doughs are
> >really sloppy at over 70g of water to 100g flour.
>
> Hi Graham,
>
> Of course, I respect your experience, but mine is certainly
> different...
>
> I regularly bake hearth loaves that are 72%. Each of the proportions
> you mention are far lower in hydration than I would use for the
> purposes you describe.
>
> All the best,
>
> --
> Kenneth

I agree and I use higher percentages. However, to a novice breadbaker, it
is better to start on the "safe" side, as long as it's not too "safe":-)
Also, bear in mind that the poster is unable to knead the dough by hand.

Best wishes
Graham

The question occurs in regard to several recipes and boils down to should I
or should I not be concerned with the slump and add more flour. Sounds like
you're saying I should add flour 'till the ball holds up for a couple of
minutes of kneading. By percentages do you mean 60% water by weight? I'm not
familiar with the term "baker's percentages".

--


Ken

Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.
"barry" > wrote in message
t...
>
> "Ken Ortmann" > wrote in message
> ...
> > I'm hoping someone can answer a question making bread dough (and
pizza
> > dough and such). I'm using a Kitchen Aid stand mixer as I am disabled
and
> > cannot mix and knead by hand. The instructions generally say to start
with
> > 3/4 of the flour and all of the liquid and mix for a minute or so. Then
> add
> > flour "until the dough forms a ball and cleans the sides of the bowl.
Then
> > knead for two minutes more". I can get it to the stage that the dough
> forms
> > a ball on the dough hook and cleans the sides of the bowl all right
> > but,oftentimes, before two minutes are up, the ball of dough will slump
> and
> > stick at the bottom center of the mixer bowl. Adding more flour will
cause
> > the ball to re-form on the hook but I may have to do this several times
> > going well over the amount of flour called for in the recipe. I
understand
> > that the amount of flour will vary somewhat due to weather and the whims
> of
> > the kitchen gods but surely should not exceed upper limits of the
recipe.
> > Whadda ya think I'm doin' wrong? By the way, I measure the flour by
weight
> > in grams.
> >
> > --
> >
> >
> > Ken
> >
> > Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.
> >
>
> Couple of observations.
>
> 1. What you're seeing is a normal process. The dough picks up the water,
> sort of on the surface, and looks like it's finished -- the dough clears
the
> side of the bowl and forms a nice dough. Then the flour gets wetted
through
> and the thing slumps a bit. Normal.
>
> 2. Be careful of what you or the recipe author use as equivalents. One
of
> the nasty little secrets of bread, and most other, cookbooks is that a lot
> of the recipes aren't tested to perform as written. The other little
secret
> is that a cup ain't a cup. If you measure the flour, you should also
> measure the water and do some calculation of baker's percentages.
>
> If you are checking baker's percentages, use these as guidelines. 60% is
> classic French bread. 65% is a tacky bread. 70% is pretty wet. 75% will
> flow. 80% is a bear to work, and will require special handling.
Obviously,
> others have different guidelines and different doughs and local conditions
> will lead to different conclusions, but if you start here, you at least
have
> an idea of what's going on.
>
> So, how much flour and water does the recipe call for?
>
> Barry
>
>

On Thu, 20 Nov 2003 18:27:04 -0600, "Ken Ortmann"
> wrote:

>By percentages do you mean 60% water by weight? I'm not
>familiar with the term "baker's percentages".

Howdy,

"Baker's percentage is the proportion (by weight) of wet to dry
ingredients. It usually ignores the tiny contribution of things like
salt.

So, if a bread has, say, 700g of water and 1000g of flour with some
yeast and salt, it would be described as 70% hydration.

As you see, the system is great for scaling.

HTH,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

Do you actually "weigh" the water?
Thanks,
Dee


"Kenneth" > wrote in message
...
> On Thu, 20 Nov 2003 18:27:04 -0600, "Ken Ortmann"
> > wrote:
>
> >By percentages do you mean 60% water by weight? I'm not
> >familiar with the term "baker's percentages".
>
> Howdy,
>
> "Baker's percentage is the proportion (by weight) of wet to dry
> ingredients. It usually ignores the tiny contribution of things like
> salt.
>
> So, if a bread has, say, 700g of water and 1000g of flour with some
> yeast and salt, it would be described as 70% hydration.
>
> As you see, the system is great for scaling.
>
> HTH,
>
> --
> Kenneth
>
> If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

On Thu, 20 Nov 2003 21:57:47 -0500, "Dee Randall"
> wrote:

>Do you actually "weigh" the water?
>Thanks,
>Dee

Hi Dee,

Yup...

I weigh everything, and it is extremely convenient. I put a large
container on the scale, dump in the appropriate weight of flour, then
salt, etc. I then pour in the appropriate of water, and finally dump
all that into the mixing bowl of my mixer...

HTH,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

Thanks,
Do you have a conversion for weight of water.
I always see 1/4 cup, 1/2 cup, 1/3 cup, 2/3 cup, 1 cup+ 2 teaspoons, etc.

Do you use ounces or grams for your conversions for your weight of water?

Dee



"Kenneth" > wrote in message
...
> On Thu, 20 Nov 2003 21:57:47 -0500, "Dee Randall"
> > wrote:
>
> >Do you actually "weigh" the water?
> >Thanks,
> >Dee
>
> Hi Dee,
>
> Yup...
>
> I weigh everything, and it is extremely convenient. I put a large
> container on the scale, dump in the appropriate weight of flour, then
> salt, etc. I then pour in the appropriate of water, and finally dump
> all that into the mixing bowl of my mixer...
>
> HTH,
>
> --
> Kenneth
>
> If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

Dee Randall wrote:

>Thanks,
>Do you have a conversion for weight of water.
>I always see 1/4 cup, 1/2 cup, 1/3 cup, 2/3 cup, 1 cup+ 2 teaspoons, etc=
=2E
>
Water weighs the same as the volume indicates.

So, if you fill a cup with water (or anything that pours like water),=20
that holds 8 ounces of volume, the weight will be 8 ounces.
1 cup =3D 8 ounces
1TB =3D 1/2 ounce
3 ts =3D 1 TB

>Do you use ounces or grams for your conversions for your weight of water=
?
>
I do use metrics. The metric system is much easier for bakers % conversio=
ns.
Don't know what Kenneth does.

--=20
Sincerly,

C=3D=A6-)=A7 H. W. Hans Kuntze, CMC, S.g.K. (_o_)
http://www.cmcchef.com , chef<AT>cmcchef.com
"Don't cry because it's over, Smile because it Happened"
_/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/=20

"H. W. Hans Kuntze" > wrote in message
...
Dee Randall wrote:

>Thanks,
>Do you have a conversion for weight of water.
>I always see 1/4 cup, 1/2 cup, 1/3 cup, 2/3 cup, 1 cup+ 2 teaspoons, etc.
>
Water weighs the same as the volume indicates.

So, if you fill a cup with water (or anything that pours like water),
that holds 8 ounces of volume, the weight will be 8 ounces.
1 cup = 8 ounces
1TB = 1/2 ounce
3 ts = 1 TB

>Do you use ounces or grams for your conversions for your weight of water?
>
I do use metrics. The metric system is much easier for bakers % conversions.
Don't know what Kenneth does.


SNIP

Cup sets are now often sold in metric format. Mine are as follows:
1 cup = 250ml
1/2 cup = 125ml
1/3 cup = 80ml
1/4 cup = 60 ml
1 Tbsp = 15ml
1 tsp = 5ml
Of course, one millilitre (ml) of water weighs one gram (at 18C or
thereabouts).
As Hans states above, when you are scaling a bread recipe, it is easier to
work in the metric system and quicker to weigh the water if it is an odd
quantity. (Actually, it's easier to work in the metric system at any time -
do I hear protests?).
Graham

On Fri, 21 Nov 2003 14:12:15 -0800, "H. W. Hans Kuntze"
> wrote:

>So, if you fill a cup with water (or anything that pours like water),
>that holds 8 ounces of volume, the weight will be 8 ounces.

Huh...?

Water, yes. Other liquids, maybe. Oil floats on water because it is
lighter.

HTH,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

"Graham" > wrote in message
news:LWwvb.451185$pl3.49835@pd7tw3no...
>
> "H. W. Hans Kuntze" > wrote in message
> ...
> Dee Randall wrote:
>> SNIP
>
> Cup sets are now often sold in metric format. Mine are as follows:
> 1 cup = 250ml
> 1/2 cup = 125ml
> 1/3 cup = 80ml
> 1/4 cup = 60 ml
> 1 Tbsp = 15ml
> 1 tsp = 5ml
> Of course, one millilitre (ml) of water weighs one gram (at 18C or
> thereabouts).
> As Hans states above, when you are scaling a bread recipe, it is easier to
> work in the metric system and quicker to weigh the water if it is an odd
> quantity. (Actually, it's easier to work in the metric system at any
time -
> do I hear protests?).
> Graham
>
>
Out of curiosity, I just checked my measuring cups (decent quality,
stainless steel) by weighing the water (several times). The results a
1 cup = 240g
1/2 cup = 120g
1/3 cup = 88g
1/4 cup = 58g
1Tbsp = 12g

It pays to get some good scales and weigh!
Graham

Kenneth wrote:

>On Fri, 21 Nov 2003 14:12:15 -0800, "H. W. Hans Kuntze"
> wrote:
>
> =20
>
>>So, if you fill a cup with water (or anything that pours like water),=20
>>that holds 8 ounces of volume, the weight will be 8 ounces.
>> =20
>>
>
>Huh...?
>
>Water, yes. Other liquids, maybe. Oil floats on water because it is
>lighter.
>
That's why it says water, or anything that pours like water, Kenneth.

Oil _*does not*_ pour like water. Nor does heavy cream. But milk does,=20
or juice, etc.

However, in these small quantities, as are common in household baking,=20
it won't make an Iota of difference, really.

--=20
Sincerly,

C=3D=A6-)=A7 H. W. Hans Kuntze, CMC, S.g.K. (_o_)
http://www.cmcchef.com , chef<AT>cmcchef.com
"Don't cry because it's over, Smile because it Happened"
_/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/=20

On Fri, 21 Nov 2003 16:09:03 -0800, "H. W. Hans Kuntze"
> wrote:

>Oil _*does not*_ pour like water. Nor does heavy cream. But milk does,
>or juice, etc.

Hi Hans,

Now I'm with you...

I had misinterpreted your earlier comment to mean anything "liquid."

All the best,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."