I learned how bakers proof bread at the culinary school today. I had a
chance to use the big wet warm cabinet called a proofer. How do you do it
at home? Do you just wait longer in cooler temperatures or is there some
good way to produce the effects of a proofer in a home kitchen?

Fred
The Good Gourmet
http://www.thegoodgourmet.com

"Fred" > wrote in message
. net...
> I learned how bakers proof bread at the culinary school today. I had a
> chance to use the big wet warm cabinet called a proofer. How do you do it
> at home? Do you just wait longer in cooler temperatures or is there some
> good way to produce the effects of a proofer in a home kitchen?

I don't find that I need a proofer unless I want to speed up the process.
You get better bread with a slow rise in a cool place. You can rig a
proofing box in a number of ways. 1) put a 11x14 pan of hot water in your
oven, place the dough in a bowl, and close the door. 2) bring a 4 cup
measure of water to a boil in your microwave, put the dough in a bowl, place
in the oven, close the door. 3) Put the dough with a pan of hot water on a
tray and invert a large plastic storage bin over it. 4) put a jug of hot
water in a picnic cooler with the dough and cover.

You get the idea. You just need a way to trap warm, moist air. Many newer
ovens have a "proof" setting. That turns the convection oven on at a
temperature of 100F. They usually recommend that you add a pan of boiling
water for moisture.

On 17 Jan 2004 at 2:35, Fred wrote:

> I learned how bakers proof bread at the culinary school today. I had
> a chance to use the big wet warm cabinet called a proofer. How do you
> do it at home? Do you just wait longer in cooler temperatures or is
> there some good way to produce the effects of a proofer in a home
> kitchen?

There are lots of ways.... you can cover the bread with oil (a thin film),
saran wrap, or a wet towel and put the bread in a warm place. The big
goals are to keep the bread from drying out, and then keep it warm.

A good place is in an oven with a pilot light or the oven lamp on.
Check your temps though, the oven can get too warm.

Some people use sweater boxes as the seal well. Others use
styrofoam coolers with some hot water in them.... lots of choices
here....

Mike
--
Mike Avery

ICQ: 16241692 AOL IM:MAvery81230
Phone: 970-642-0280
* Spam is for lusers who can't get business any other
way *

A Randomly Selected Product Warning
PUBLIC NOTICE AS REQUIRED BY LAW: Any use of this product,
in any
manner whatsoever, will increase the amount of disorder in the
universe. Although no liability is implied herein, the consumer is
warned that this process will ultimately lead to the heat death of
the universe.

When I am forming my bread into loaves or rolls, I turn my oven (gas) till
it just comes on. Turn it off and turn the light on. Put my formed dough
in the oven covered by a towel till risen.

--
Helen

Thanks be unto God for His wonderful gift:
Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God
is the object of our faith; the only faith that
saves is faith in Him

<>< ><>
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225/190/145





"Fred" > wrote in message
. net...
> I learned how bakers proof bread at the culinary school today. I had a
> chance to use the big wet warm cabinet called a proofer. How do you do it
> at home? Do you just wait longer in cooler temperatures or is there some
> good way to produce the effects of a proofer in a home kitchen?
>
> Fred
> The Good Gourmet
> http://www.thegoodgourmet.com
>
>

On Sat, 17 Jan 2004 02:35:55 +0000, Fred wrote:

> I learned how bakers proof bread at the culinary school today. I had a
> chance to use the big wet warm cabinet called a proofer. How do you do
> it at home?

I proof my dough by putting the dough in a lightly oiled bowl, cover it
with saran wrap, and put the bowl on top of my computer monitor. The
inside of the bowl ends up being just the right temp.

During the summer, I'll sometimes put the bowl in sunlight to provide more
even heating.

> Do you just wait longer in cooler temperatures or is there some good way
> to produce the effects of a proofer in a home kitchen?

I proof my doughnuts at room temperature, and I've seen that it's better
for the dough. Alton Brown claims that you should proof in the fridge, but
I can't say that I agree with that. I've noticed that it leads to uneven
proofing as the dough goes through its temperature change in a rather slow
fashion. Minor point, but for fragile doughs it can be a problem.

> Fred


--
-Brian James Macke
"In order to get that which you wish for, you must first get that which
builds it." -- Unknown

"Fred" > wrote in message
. net...
> I learned how bakers proof bread at the culinary school today. I had a
> chance to use the big wet warm cabinet called a proofer. How do you do it
> at home? Do you just wait longer in cooler temperatures or is there some
> good way to produce the effects of a proofer in a home kitchen?
>
> Fred
> The Good Gourmet
> http://www.thegoodgourmet.com
>
>

Thanks for the tips. I was really concerned about proofing after the loaves
are made up. The first proofing isn't much of a deal and room temp. seems
fine to me. The idea of starting and then stopping the oven makes sense.
I'll work with that idea. In fact I'll make up some dinner rolls at the
store today and test the process in our "consumer kitchen." Take care.

Fred
The Good Gourmet
http://www.thegoodgourmet.com

"Vox Humana" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Fred" > wrote in message
> . net...
> > I learned how bakers proof bread at the culinary school today. I had a
> > chance to use the big wet warm cabinet called a proofer. How do you do
it
> > at home? Do you just wait longer in cooler temperatures or is there
some
> > good way to produce the effects of a proofer in a home kitchen?
>
> I don't find that I need a proofer unless I want to speed up the process.
> You get better bread with a slow rise in a cool place. You can rig a
> proofing box in a number of ways. 1) put a 11x14 pan of hot water in your
> oven, place the dough in a bowl, and close the door. 2) bring a 4 cup
> measure of water to a boil in your microwave, put the dough in a bowl,
place
> in the oven, close the door. 3) Put the dough with a pan of hot water on
a
> tray and invert a large plastic storage bin over it. 4) put a jug of hot
> water in a picnic cooler with the dough and cover.
>
> You get the idea. You just need a way to trap warm, moist air. Many
newer
> ovens have a "proof" setting. That turns the convection oven on at a
> temperature of 100F. They usually recommend that you add a pan of boiling
> water for moisture.
>
>
<snip>
3) Put the dough with a pan of hot water on a
tray and invert a large plastic storage bin over it.

I have a large plastic storage bin to cover my dough to raise. I'm not sure
what you mean by putting the dough with a pan of hot water on a tray .." I
can't visualize this, can you be a little more specific for me?

thanks
Dee

"LIMEYNO1" > wrote in message
...
> When I am forming my bread into loaves or rolls, I turn my oven (gas) till
> it just comes on. Turn it off and turn the light on. Put my formed dough
> in the oven covered by a towel till risen.
>
> --
> Helen

Helen, do you have two ovens? I usually put my stone in to heat up 45
minutes before baking. Do you use this procedure on your second rise as
well?

Thanks,
Dee
>
>
>
>
> "Fred" > wrote in message
> . net...
> > I learned how bakers proof bread at the culinary school today. I had a
> > chance to use the big wet warm cabinet called a proofer. How do you do
it
> > at home? Do you just wait longer in cooler temperatures or is there
some
> > good way to produce the effects of a proofer in a home kitchen?
> >
> > Fred
> > The Good Gourmet
> > http://www.thegoodgourmet.com
> >
> >
>
>

pc playing up so sorry if this appears more than once.i empty a shelf
in my airing cupboard and pop the bowl of dough in there for the first
rise.(if my kitchen is not warm enough--otherwise i just leave it on
the worktop) for the second rise i put the bread tins on top of my
central heating boiler and the warmth from that is just right.

"Fred" > wrote in message
. net...
> I learned how bakers proof bread at the culinary school today. I had a
> chance to use the big wet warm cabinet called a proofer. How do you do it
> at home? Do you just wait longer in cooler temperatures or is there some
> good way to produce the effects of a proofer in a home kitchen?
>
> Fred
> The Good Gourmet
> http://www.thegoodgourmet.com
>
>

Here's my setup for proofing yeast dough: I place the oiled dough in a
warmed greased bowl, then place the covered bowl on top of an electric
heating pad (yeah, the kind used for sore muscles! LOL) set at "medium".
When I make rolls, after the first rising I shape the rolls, place them on a
greased baking sheet, cover, and place the baking sheet on the heating pad
for the final rise.

In lieu of a heating pad, I've used a 9"x13" roasting pan filled halfway
with the hottest water from the tap. I set the baking sheet on top of that
and cover the dough. This works really well, too.

When kitchen and oven space are at a premium, these "portable" methods can
be used in almost any room in the house...as long as you remember you've got
dough rising somewhere! :-)

Karen

"Fred" > wrote in message
. net...
>
> "Fred" > wrote in message
> . net...
> > I learned how bakers proof bread at the culinary school today. I had a
> > chance to use the big wet warm cabinet called a proofer. How do you do
it
> > at home? Do you just wait longer in cooler temperatures or is there
some
> > good way to produce the effects of a proofer in a home kitchen?
> >
> > Fred
> > The Good Gourmet
> > http://www.thegoodgourmet.com
> >
> >
>
> Thanks for the tips. I was really concerned about proofing after the
loaves
> are made up. The first proofing isn't much of a deal and room temp. seems
> fine to me. The idea of starting and then stopping the oven makes sense.
> I'll work with that idea. In fact I'll make up some dinner rolls at the
> store today and test the process in our "consumer kitchen." Take care.
>
> Fred
> The Good Gourmet
> http://www.thegoodgourmet.com
>
>

I tried the oven method today. I turned the oven on for about a minute and
then shut it off and put a pan of dinner rolls and a pan of baguettes in to
proof. The proofed product was pretty uneven. What I mean is that the
baguettes had a lumpy crust as though some little creature was inside trying
to break through in spots and the cloverleaf rolls looked kind of funny.
Nevertheless, everything baked to perfection and the product had perfect
texture and good flavor. I think the oven might have proofed a little too
fast and, hence, unevenly. At least the dough was good. I'll keep
experimenting.

Fred
The Good Gourmet
http://www.thegoodgourmet.com

On Sun, 18 Jan 2004 00:48:45 GMT, "Fred" >
wrote:

>
>"Fred" > wrote in message
.net...
>>
>> "Fred" > wrote in message
>> . net...
>> > I learned how bakers proof bread at the culinary school today. I had a
>> > chance to use the big wet warm cabinet called a proofer. How do you do
>it
>> > at home? Do you just wait longer in cooler temperatures or is there
>some
>> > good way to produce the effects of a proofer in a home kitchen?
>> >
>> > Fred
>> > The Good Gourmet
>> > http://www.thegoodgourmet.com
>> >
>> >
>>
>> Thanks for the tips. I was really concerned about proofing after the
>loaves
>> are made up. The first proofing isn't much of a deal and room temp. seems
>> fine to me. The idea of starting and then stopping the oven makes sense.
>> I'll work with that idea. In fact I'll make up some dinner rolls at the
>> store today and test the process in our "consumer kitchen." Take care.
>>
>> Fred
>> The Good Gourmet
>> http://www.thegoodgourmet.com
>>
>>
>
>I tried the oven method today. I turned the oven on for about a minute and
>then shut it off and put a pan of dinner rolls and a pan of baguettes in to
>proof. The proofed product was pretty uneven. What I mean is that the
>baguettes had a lumpy crust as though some little creature was inside trying
>to break through in spots and the cloverleaf rolls looked kind of funny.
>Nevertheless, everything baked to perfection and the product had perfect
>texture and good flavor. I think the oven might have proofed a little too
>fast and, hence, unevenly. At least the dough was good. I'll keep
>experimenting.
>
>Fred
>The Good Gourmet
>http://www.thegoodgourmet.com
>

Howdy,

It seems that much of this thread is based upon the (false) assumption
that it is best to warm the dough, and therefor accelerate the
proofing process. Generally, cooler, slower proofing yields better
flavor and texture.

All the best,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

On 17 Jan 2004 at 21:30, Kenneth wrote:

> It seems that much of this thread is based upon the (false) assumption
> that it is best to warm the dough, and therefor accelerate the
> proofing process. Generally, cooler, slower proofing yields better
> flavor and texture.

While that's true, it's often helpful to have a good idea when the bread will be
done, and how well it will have risen.

Controlling the temperature of the dough as well as the temperature and
humidity of the proofing area are big factors in this.


Mike--
Mike Avery

ICQ: 16241692 AOL IM:MAvery81230
Phone: 970-642-0280
* Spam is for lusers who can't get business any other
way *

Once seen on road signs all over the United States:
Takes the 'H' out of shave
Burma-Shave

"Dee Randall" <deedoveyatshenteldotnet> wrote in message
...
>
> "Vox Humana" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Fred" > wrote in message
> > . net...
> > > I learned how bakers proof bread at the culinary school today. I had
a
> > > chance to use the big wet warm cabinet called a proofer. How do you
do
> it
> > > at home? Do you just wait longer in cooler temperatures or is there
> some
> > > good way to produce the effects of a proofer in a home kitchen?
> >
> > I don't find that I need a proofer unless I want to speed up the
process.
> > You get better bread with a slow rise in a cool place. You can rig a
> > proofing box in a number of ways. 1) put a 11x14 pan of hot water in
your
> > oven, place the dough in a bowl, and close the door. 2) bring a 4 cup
> > measure of water to a boil in your microwave, put the dough in a bowl,
> place
> > in the oven, close the door. 3) Put the dough with a pan of hot water
on
> a
> > tray and invert a large plastic storage bin over it. 4) put a jug of
hot
> > water in a picnic cooler with the dough and cover.
> >
> > You get the idea. You just need a way to trap warm, moist air. Many
> newer
> > ovens have a "proof" setting. That turns the convection oven on at a
> > temperature of 100F. They usually recommend that you add a pan of
boiling
> > water for moisture.
> >
> >
> <snip>
> 3) Put the dough with a pan of hot water on a
> tray and invert a large plastic storage bin over it.
>
> I have a large plastic storage bin to cover my dough to raise. I'm not
sure
> what you mean by putting the dough with a pan of hot water on a tray .." I
> can't visualize this, can you be a little more specific for me?
>
> thanks
> Dee
>

OK, by jove, I think I've got it. I knew there was a solution there for me
as I have a large plastic bread cover-er.
1) Onto a baking tray, set your container of dough; and beside it on the
tray, set your container of hot water.
2) Cover the tray with a plastic-bread-cover which covers the whole tray
and sits flush on the table so the heat/moisture will not escape.

Thanks,
Dee


>

On Sat, 17 Jan 2004 21:30:34 -0500, Kenneth wrote:

> It seems that much of this thread is based upon the (false) assumption
> that it is best to warm the dough, and therefor accelerate the proofing
> process. Generally, cooler, slower proofing yields better flavor and
> texture.

I think it's improper to say that warming up the dough is "accelerating"
the proofing process. Proofing dough is done at the ideal temperature for
yeast growth (near 32C/90F and 80-85% humidity). To raise your dough at
any temperature outside the ideal yeast growth range and you are
"retarding" the yeast growth. Sometimes this is useful, like in doughnut
production. For something like pizza crust, it's just a slower process.
Better to get the pizza dough's yeast moving rather than take 25% longer
for no palatable benefit.


--
-Brian James Macke
"In order to get that which you wish for, you must first get that which
builds it." -- Unknown

On Sat, 17 Jan 2004 22:00:54 -0600, "Brian Macke"
> wrote:

>I think it's improper to say that warming up the dough is "accelerating"
>the proofing process. Proofing dough is done at the ideal temperature for
>yeast growth (near 32C/90F and 80-85% humidity).

Well, we certainly disagree...

When you say above that "Proofing dough is done at the ideal
temperature for yeast growth" you are confusing "ideal" with "most
rapid."

Proofing can, in fact, be "done" at any temperature that allows the
yeasts to multiply. Dough will proof (slowly) in the refrigerator.

All the best,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

On Sat, 17 Jan 2004 19:38:38 -0700, "Mike Avery"
> wrote:

>Controlling the temperature of the dough as well as the temperature and
>humidity of the proofing area are big factors in this.

Hi Mike,

On that we agree, but please note how frequently in this thread folks
talk about ways of "warming" the dough. In fact, I don't recall too
many comments about accurately measuring the temperature of the dough
or the surrounding environment.

All the best,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

Kenneth > wrote:

>On Sat, 17 Jan 2004 19:38:38 -0700, "Mike Avery"
> wrote:
>
>>Controlling the temperature of the dough as well as the temperature and
>>humidity of the proofing area are big factors in this.
>
>Hi Mike,
>
>On that we agree, but please note how frequently in this thread folks
>talk about ways of "warming" the dough. In fact, I don't recall too
>many comments about accurately measuring the temperature of the dough
>or the surrounding environment.
>
>All the best,

Decided to check the loaf I started this morning. Room temp is 69.1.
Internal temp of the dough is 72.4. It doubled in 2 hours just
sitting on the counter in a plastic container with one of the "shower
cap" covers on it.


--
Susan N.

There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary and those who do not.

"Dee Randall" <deedoveyatshenteldotnet> wrote in message
...
>
> "Dee Randall" <deedoveyatshenteldotnet> wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Vox Humana" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >
> > > "Fred" > wrote in message
> > > . net...
> > > > I learned how bakers proof bread at the culinary school today. I
had
> a
> > > > chance to use the big wet warm cabinet called a proofer. How do you
> do
> > it
> > > > at home? Do you just wait longer in cooler temperatures or is there
> > some
> > > > good way to produce the effects of a proofer in a home kitchen?
> > >
> > > I don't find that I need a proofer unless I want to speed up the
> process.
> > > You get better bread with a slow rise in a cool place. You can rig a
> > > proofing box in a number of ways. 1) put a 11x14 pan of hot water in
> your
> > > oven, place the dough in a bowl, and close the door. 2) bring a 4 cup
> > > measure of water to a boil in your microwave, put the dough in a bowl,
> > place
> > > in the oven, close the door. 3) Put the dough with a pan of hot water
> on
> > a
> > > tray and invert a large plastic storage bin over it. 4) put a jug of
> hot
> > > water in a picnic cooler with the dough and cover.
> > >
> > > You get the idea. You just need a way to trap warm, moist air. Many
> > newer
> > > ovens have a "proof" setting. That turns the convection oven on at a
> > > temperature of 100F. They usually recommend that you add a pan of
> boiling
> > > water for moisture.
> > >
> > >
> > <snip>
> > 3) Put the dough with a pan of hot water on a
> > tray and invert a large plastic storage bin over it.
> >
> > I have a large plastic storage bin to cover my dough to raise. I'm not
> sure
> > what you mean by putting the dough with a pan of hot water on a tray .."
I
> > can't visualize this, can you be a little more specific for me?
> >
> > thanks
> > Dee
> >
>
> OK, by jove, I think I've got it. I knew there was a solution there for
me
> as I have a large plastic bread cover-er.
> 1) Onto a baking tray, set your container of dough; and beside it on the
> tray, set your container of hot water.
> 2) Cover the tray with a plastic-bread-cover which covers the whole tray
> and sits flush on the table so the heat/moisture will not escape.
>
> Thanks,
> Dee

Exactly!

On Sun, 18 Jan 2004 09:55:41 -0500, Kenneth wrote:

> Well, we certainly disagree...

Quite. Not necessarily a bad thing, but it may be distracting for the
original poster.

> When you say above that "Proofing dough is done at the ideal temperature
> for yeast growth" you are confusing "ideal" with "most rapid."

This is semantical, but remember that I'm speaking about the growth of
yeast. The best way (the ideal way) to grow yeast would be an environment
at the "ideal temperature" for such growth. Rapid yeast growth does not
affect its quality. There is nothing lost intrinsic to the yeast to have
it grow faster. By extension, nothing is lost to have it grow at a slower
temperature. This is why retarding yeast growth doesn't lead to an
inferior product - just takes longer.

> Proofing can, in fact, be "done" at any temperature that allows the yeasts
> to multiply. Dough will proof (slowly) in the refrigerator.

I do not disagree with this. My mere point is that you don't gain much by
doing this. Other than wait time. If that's your goal (making rolls the
night before to give you time to rest overnight) then by all means you can
proof in a refridgerator. They even make retarder-proofers these days that
keep the humidity in the 70-80% range. Just do all the steps to makeup,
put them in the retarder-proofer, set the timer, and come back to
perfectly proofed doughs.

--
-Brian James Macke
"In order to get that which you wish for, you must first get that which
builds it." -- Unknown

"Brian Macke" > wrote in message
news
> This is semantical, but remember that I'm speaking about the growth of
> yeast. The best way (the ideal way) to grow yeast would be an environment
> at the "ideal temperature" for such growth. Rapid yeast growth does not
> affect its quality. There is nothing lost intrinsic to the yeast to have
> it grow faster. By extension, nothing is lost to have it grow at a slower
> temperature. This is why retarding yeast growth doesn't lead to an
> inferior product - just takes longer.
> -Brian James Macke
> "In order to get that which you wish for, you must first get that
which
> builds it." -- Unknown
>
I dunno. More rapid yeast growth is generally accomplished by warmer
temperatures which if overdone can lead to some really nasty tasting and
smelling bread. On the other hand, I am able to taste the difference
between a retarded proof and a normal proof--there is increased 'sweetness'
and nuttiness to the lean breads. There is no doubt that there is little to
be gained in a retail or commercial baking setting by retarding proof as it
is unlikely that you will be able to price up a loaf to reflect the lost
production time. But in the home setting, a retarded proof produces a
better flavored lean loaf.
Janet

Brian Macke wrote:

> [...]
>
>Rapid yeast growth does not affect its quality.[....]
>
Maybe not the yeast's, but for me, quality includes the flavor and=20
texture of the baked (or fermented/brewed for that matter) goods.

Of course, it also has to do with more thorough hydration of the dough,=20
but a slowly fermented dough just produces a better tasting product for=20
that matter, IMHO.

--=20
Grue$$e.

C=3D=A6-)=A7 H. W. Hans Kuntze, CMC, S.g.K. (_o_)
" Strive for excellence in your life & reject being a doormat to others. =
Serve God. "
http://www.cmcchef.com , chef[AT]cmcchef.com
_/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/=20

"The Cook" > wrote in message
...
>
> Decided to check the loaf I started this morning. Room temp is 69.1.
> Internal temp of the dough is 72.4. It doubled in 2 hours just
> sitting on the counter in a plastic container with one of the "shower
> cap" covers on it.
>
>
> --
> Susan N.
>
> There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary
and those who do not.

You make an excellent point. The dough itself produces heat as it ferments.
If you were to put the bowl or formed loaves in a poofed up plastic bag or
box or similar, you would be very surprised at the amount of heat and
moisture that is generated. Once one learns the techniques of making bread
correctly and stops watching the clock, one finds that bread proceeds
rapidly on its own without additional warmth. A lot of bread is slow to
rise just because it has too much flour or is not kneaded enough.
Janet

"Janet Bostwick" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Brian Macke" > wrote in message
> news
> > This is semantical, but remember that I'm speaking about the growth of
> > yeast. The best way (the ideal way) to grow yeast would be an
environment
> > at the "ideal temperature" for such growth. Rapid yeast growth does not
> > affect its quality. There is nothing lost intrinsic to the yeast to have
> > it grow faster. By extension, nothing is lost to have it grow at a
slower
> > temperature. This is why retarding yeast growth doesn't lead to an
> > inferior product - just takes longer.
> > -Brian James Macke
> > "In order to get that which you wish for, you must first get that
> which
> > builds it." -- Unknown
> >
> I dunno. More rapid yeast growth is generally accomplished by warmer
> temperatures which if overdone can lead to some really nasty tasting and
> smelling bread. On the other hand, I am able to taste the difference
> between a retarded proof and a normal proof--there is increased
'sweetness'
> and nuttiness to the lean breads. There is no doubt that there is little
to
> be gained in a retail or commercial baking setting by retarding proof as
it
> is unlikely that you will be able to price up a loaf to reflect the lost
> production time. But in the home setting, a retarded proof produces a
> better flavored lean loaf.
> Janet
>

What seems to be missing from this discussion is the role of bacteria.
There are always two types of fermentation occurring in the dough: fungal
and bacterial fermentation. Yeast (fungus) reproduces well in a narrow
range of temperature (as someone already noted) producing mostly CO2 and
alcohol. Bacteria reproduce more slowly and can continue to reproduce and
metabolize at temperatures below the ideal temperatures for yeast. These
bacteria produce organic acids and esters that change the pH of the dough
and impart many complex flavors. Therefore, if you ferment the dough at a
high temperature that favors the yeast, you get few of the flavorful
compounds but you do achieve the doubling in size that is required for most
bread. When you ferment the dough at a low temperature, it takes much
longer for the yeast to produce enough CO2 for the dough to rise thus giving
the bacteria time to do their thing.

On Sun, 18 Jan 2004 14:02:05 -0800, "H. W. Hans Kuntze"
> wrote:

>Of course, it also has to do with more thorough hydration of the dough,
>but a slowly fermented dough just produces a better tasting product for
>that matter, IMHO.

Hi Hans,

I often mention to folks that making bread is rather like making wine
in this regard....

We could certainly ferment grape juice quickly to produce something
that has some of the constituents of wine. But few would want to drink
it.

Almost without exception (in my experience) fermented foods profit
from a slower, cooler, processing. Bread included.

All the best,


--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

"The Cook" > wrote in message
...
> Kenneth > wrote:
>
> >On Sat, 17 Jan 2004 19:38:38 -0700, "Mike Avery"
> > wrote:
> >
> >>Controlling the temperature of the dough as well as the temperature and
> >>humidity of the proofing area are big factors in this.
> >
> >Hi Mike,
> >
> >On that we agree, but please note how frequently in this thread folks
> >talk about ways of "warming" the dough. In fact, I don't recall too
> >many comments about accurately measuring the temperature of the dough
> >or the surrounding environment.
>
>
> Decided to check the loaf I started this morning. Room temp is 69.1.
> Internal temp of the dough is 72.4. It doubled in 2 hours just
> sitting on the counter in a plastic container with one of the "shower
> cap" covers on it.
>
Did you use a lot of yeast to get it to do this? I cannot get my dough to
rise in less than 3-4 hours at this temperature. I never put it in the
refrigerator to rise anymore. After I take it out of the refrigerator after
and overnight and warm it up, it might take all day to rise, ALWAYS too
darned lated to have bread even that day. I certainly would love to have
that second overnight rise IN the refrigerator, but I can't get it right.

So I specifically latched on to the above
"In fact, I don't recall too
> >many comments about accurately measuring the temperature of the dough
> >or the surrounding environment."

thanks,
Dee

"Dee Randall" <deedoveyatshenteldotnet> wrote in message
...
> So I specifically latched on to the above
> "In fact, I don't recall too
> > >many comments about accurately measuring the temperature of the dough
> > >or the surrounding environment."
>
> thanks,
> Dee
Two possibilities I think. My daughter recently complained that she
couldn't get her wheat bread to rise. I noticed that she was taking ice
cold ingredients from storage and mixing the yeast with tepid water. That's
an easy fix. Make sure that the ingredients are room temperature warm and
use water for the yeast according to package instructions and you should end
up with a finished dough that is about 80F--perfect. The other possibility
is that you are using too much flour either in the mixing or kneading, and
the dough is too stiff to rise well--dough doesn't have to look dry and
crumbly to be too dry.
Janet

Do you know which ovens go low enough to proof? I'm guessing the gas
oven won't temp that low. Will the Dacor?
Thanks
Kent

Vox Humana wrote:
>
> "Fred" > wrote in message
> . net...
> > I learned how bakers proof bread at the culinary school today. I had a
> > chance to use the big wet warm cabinet called a proofer. How do you do it
> > at home? Do you just wait longer in cooler temperatures or is there some
> > good way to produce the effects of a proofer in a home kitchen?
>
> I don't find that I need a proofer unless I want to speed up the process.
> You get better bread with a slow rise in a cool place. You can rig a
> proofing box in a number of ways. 1) put a 11x14 pan of hot water in your
> oven, place the dough in a bowl, and close the door. 2) bring a 4 cup
> measure of water to a boil in your microwave, put the dough in a bowl, place
> in the oven, close the door. 3) Put the dough with a pan of hot water on a
> tray and invert a large plastic storage bin over it. 4) put a jug of hot
> water in a picnic cooler with the dough and cover.
>
> You get the idea. You just need a way to trap warm, moist air. Many newer
> ovens have a "proof" setting. That turns the convection oven on at a
> temperature of 100F. They usually recommend that you add a pan of boiling
> water for moisture.

"Kent H." > wrote in message
...
> Do you know which ovens go low enough to proof? I'm guessing the gas
> oven won't temp that low. Will the Dacor?
> Thanks
> Kent

My JennAir starts at 100F. My mother's KitchenAid oven has a special proof
setting (as do the newer JennAirs among others) that is programmed at 100F.
My new Sharp Convection/Microwave also has a 100F setting that they
recommend for proofing. I would imagine that most newer ovens with
electronic controls can be set at 100F. You can get product information for
Dacor at their website.

100F is too warm. Yeast likes it at around 80F. Too cold, no rise, too hot
and the some yeast cells die off. What I do is turn my oven on to 200F, for
1 minute, and then turn it off. I have a thermapen that i use to check the
dough temperature, and that's worked for me. My first rise is 2 hours, and
the dough stays close to 80F.

My second rise is 45 minutes, and that's on the counter. I get the bottom
from a plastic storage box (shallow, but large and rectangular), invert it
over the baguettes. Then I take a measuring cup full of boiling water, and
stick it in there. The moisture and heat help the dough rise. The rolls are
laying in a piece of muslin that's been floured and waved to make little
rising beds. I still cover the rolls with plastic wrap though.

A method I learned from _The Best Bread Ever_, is to measure the temperature
of your flour. Take 145F - flour temp = water temp. After mixing in the food
processor, you'll be spot on your target temp (at least in mine). Check your
process and adjust as necessary.

Buy instant yeast instead of active yeast to bypass "activating" your yeast
in warm water. Just mix it with your dry ingredients. Instant yeast contains
very few dead yeasts, unlike active yeast, so you need less of it. I don't
have the conversion factor between the two types with me, but I could look
it up. You can use either in any recipe with the right conversion. Cook's
Illustrated had an article on it. BTW, I got a large brick of instant yeast
at a restaurant supply store for a lot less than those jars in the chain
stores (safeway, albertsons, etc). Must be about 5 or six jars worth. I
filled up a couple of jars, vacuum sealed and refrigerated the rest.

Check out this link:
http://www.gardenguides.com/recipes/...tbreadever.htm


Happy baking.

"Vox Humana" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Kent H." > wrote in message
> ...
> > Do you know which ovens go low enough to proof? I'm guessing the gas
> > oven won't temp that low. Will the Dacor?
> > Thanks
> > Kent
>
> My JennAir starts at 100F. My mother's KitchenAid oven has a special
proof
> setting (as do the newer JennAirs among others) that is programmed at
100F.
> My new Sharp Convection/Microwave also has a 100F setting that they
> recommend for proofing. I would imagine that most newer ovens with
> electronic controls can be set at 100F. You can get product information
for
> Dacor at their website.
>
>

Some folks use a picnic cooler with a small light inside--40W.
Others have used a heating pad--use a rack to elevate the bottom of
the bowl above the pad--or use a light bulb again--then invert a box
or wrap/cover in towels and blankets.
I used to use my microwave--filled with quart jars of very hot water.

Lately I just let it go natural in my cool house, ~64 degrees.
It takes longer, but the bread tastes better!

Many if the current bread gurus are touting the longer, cooler rise
for making superior bread: more complex flavor elements need
longer rises and cooler temperatures to developed. Some even "retard"
bread development in the refrigerator overnight. See books by Peter
Reinhart,
Nancy Silverton, Carol Field, and several others. I have tried it and it
really is the way to go. One can have a bread recipe going all the time if
there is room in the 'fridge! Just fold it down once per day. I made a
really good batch of pizza dough over a full week recently. When we finally
stretched it out and used it, I could not believe the great elasticity of
the dough---and the taste was the best!

Let us know what method you use and what the results are.

Barb



"Fred" > wrote in message
. net...
> I learned how bakers proof bread at the culinary school today. I had a
> chance to use the big wet warm cabinet called a proofer. How do you do it
> at home? Do you just wait longer in cooler temperatures or is there some
> good way to produce the effects of a proofer in a home kitchen?
>
> Fred
> The Good Gourmet
> http://www.thegoodgourmet.com
>
>

On Sun, 18 Jan 2004 14:54:00 -0700, Janet Bostwick wrote:


> and nuttiness to the lean breads. There is no doubt that there is little to
> be gained in a retail or commercial baking setting by retarding proof as it
> is unlikely that you will be able to price up a loaf to reflect the lost
> production time.

Well I worked in a retail bakery (13 outlets) and a small village type
bakery. All the sourdough was retarded for 24hrs. in the larger
operation. In the smaller one I would retard the final dough for up to
three days.

The consideration here was more one of cooler space/energy than production
time which is off-set somewhat by the shorter mixing times.

At home here I'm retarding the lean doughs for at least 36 hours, or
should I say 36 hours in the frig, then another 12 hours til bake off.
This is with 7-9lbs batches however. I think the trade off is frig
energy vs production time gained because I don't use a pre-ferment so
there is only one mix. It's just a drawn out straight-dough method without the
'punch downs'. One mix, one ferment, a long bench rest/proof,
rounding/rest/proof, shaping, a final proof and there ya go.

I think the quality of the bread is dramatically improved.

The longer you can keep that dough fermenting and still hold structure
and a final push the better the bread will be, no question at this end.

On Mon, 19 Jan 2004 00:24:31 -0500, Dee Randall wrote:

>After I take it out of the refrigerator after
> and overnight and warm it up, it might take all day to rise, ALWAYS too
> darned lated to have bread even that day.

I have found two things that do this.

I'm using Instant yeast, if this comes in direct contact with cold
water slows things down a lot.

The other is adding the salt too soon after the yeast.

With sourdough, if my starter isn't active enough, it has to be
very active, the dough will just hang.