Lemon or white vinegar as a dough conditioner
 

I was reading on the net at

http://www.bread-bakers.com/archives...s/v098n011.txt



a poster says:



“I have found out that bottled lemon juice/white vinegar is probably one of

the cheapest sources of dough conditioners to start off with( tenderizers

and relaxes the gluten in the recipe).”



And

"When I experimented

with my dill pickle bread .. I was amazed that the bread was so fine

grained, light textured and fluffy- most likely from the pickle brine...”



She doesn’t give amounts - her recipe for her dill pickle bread is no
longer at that website.

Can someone tell me why this might work?



Thanks,

Dee

Lemon or white vinegar as a dough conditioner
 

"Dee Randall" <deedoveyatshenteldotnet> wrote in message
...
> I was reading on the net at
>
> http://www.bread-bakers.com/archives...s/v098n011.txt
>
>
>
> a poster says:
>
>
>
> “I have found out that bottled lemon juice/white vinegar is probably one
of
>
> the cheapest sources of dough conditioners to start off with( tenderizers
>
> and relaxes the gluten in the recipe).”
>
>
>
> And
>
> "When I experimented
>
> with my dill pickle bread .. I was amazed that the bread was so fine
>
> grained, light textured and fluffy- most likely from the pickle brine...”
>
>
>
> She doesn’t give amounts - her recipe for her dill pickle bread is no
> longer at that website.
>
> Can someone tell me why this might work?

A low pH (acid) inhibits gluten formation. Cake flour is slightly acid (due
to chlorination) which helps to reduce gluten formation and reduce browning.
Sometimes I think that products like dough conditioners are solutions in
search for a problem. I would suggest that if your dough has so much gluten
that you can't work with it that you simply switch to a lower gluten flour.
Also, a crumb that is uniform, light, and fluffy is not necessarily a good
thing.

Lemon or white vinegar as a dough conditioner
 

"Dee Randall" <deedoveyatshenteldotnet> wrote in message
...
> I was reading on the net at
>
> http://www.bread-bakers.com/archives...s/v098n011.txt
>
>
>
> a poster says:
>
>
>
> "I have found out that bottled lemon juice/white vinegar is probably one
of
>
> the cheapest sources of dough conditioners to start off with( tenderizers
>
> and relaxes the gluten in the recipe)."
>
>
>
> And
>
> "When I experimented
>
> with my dill pickle bread .. I was amazed that the bread was so fine
>
> grained, light textured and fluffy- most likely from the pickle brine..."
>
>
>
> She doesn't give amounts - her recipe for her dill pickle bread is no
> longer at that website.
>
> Can someone tell me why this might work?
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Dee
>
Google alt.bread.recipes Roy Basan Vitamin C
Janet

Lemon or white vinegar as a dough conditioner
 

"Janet Bostwick" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Dee Randall" <deedoveyatshenteldotnet> wrote in message
> ...
> > I was reading on the net at
> >
> > http://www.bread-bakers.com/archives...s/v098n011.txt
> >
> >
> >
> > a poster says:
> >
> >
> >
> > "I have found out that bottled lemon juice/white vinegar is probably one
> of
> >
> > the cheapest sources of dough conditioners to start off with(
tenderizers
> >
> > and relaxes the gluten in the recipe)."
> >
> >
> >
> > And
> >
> > "When I experimented
> >
> > with my dill pickle bread .. I was amazed that the bread was so fine
> >
> > grained, light textured and fluffy- most likely from the pickle
brine..."
> >
> >
> >
> > She doesn't give amounts - her recipe for her dill pickle bread is no
> > longer at that website.
> >
> > Can someone tell me why this might work?
> >
> >
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Dee
> >
> Google alt.bread.recipes Roy Basan Vitamin C
> Janet

Except that vinegar doesn't contain any vitamin C.

Lemon or white vinegar as a dough conditioner
 

"Vox Humana" > wrote:

>
>"Janet Bostwick" > wrote in message
...
>>
>> "Dee Randall" <deedoveyatshenteldotnet> wrote in message
>> ...
>> > I was reading on the net at
>> >
>> > http://www.bread-bakers.com/archives...s/v098n011.txt
>> > a poster says:

>> > "I have found out that bottled lemon juice/white vinegar is probably one
>> of
>> > the cheapest sources of dough conditioners to start off with(
>tenderizers
>> > and relaxes the gluten in the recipe)."
>> > And
>> >
>> > "When I experimented
>> > with my dill pickle bread .. I was amazed that the bread was so fine
>> > grained, light textured and fluffy- most likely from the pickle
>brine..."
>> >
>> > She doesn't give amounts - her recipe for her dill pickle bread is no
>> > longer at that website.
>> >
>> > Can someone tell me why this might work?
>> > Thanks,
>> >
>> > Dee
>> >
>> Google alt.bread.recipes Roy Basan Vitamin C
>> Janet
>
>Except that vinegar doesn't contain any vitamin C.

No, but it's a weak acid, as is ascorbic acid (vitamin C). I think
the acid is what make the difference, not the 'vitamin c' part.

jenn
--
Jenn Ridley

Lemon or white vinegar as a dough conditioner
 

"Jenn Ridley" > wrote in message
...
> "Vox Humana" > wrote:
>
> >
> >"Janet Bostwick" > wrote in message
> ...
> >>
> >> "Dee Randall" <deedoveyatshenteldotnet> wrote in message
> >> ...
> >> > I was reading on the net at
> >> >
> >> > http://www.bread-bakers.com/archives...s/v098n011.txt
> >> > a poster says:
>
> >> > "I have found out that bottled lemon juice/white vinegar is probably
one
> >> of
> >> > the cheapest sources of dough conditioners to start off with(
> >tenderizers
> >> > and relaxes the gluten in the recipe)."
> >> > And
> >> >
> >> > "When I experimented
> >> > with my dill pickle bread .. I was amazed that the bread was so fine
> >> > grained, light textured and fluffy- most likely from the pickle
> >brine..."
> >> >
> >> > She doesn't give amounts - her recipe for her dill pickle bread is
no
> >> > longer at that website.
> >> >
> >> > Can someone tell me why this might work?
> >> > Thanks,
> >> >
> >> > Dee
> >> >
> >> Google alt.bread.recipes Roy Basan Vitamin C
> >> Janet
> >
> >Except that vinegar doesn't contain any vitamin C.
>
> No, but it's a weak acid, as is ascorbic acid (vitamin C). I think
> the acid is what make the difference, not the 'vitamin c' part.

Vitamin c can function in two way in bread making. It can act as a nutrient
for the yeast and is sometimes added to the granules of instant dry active
yeast. It can also facilitate gluten formation. The OP was talking about
adding acid through the addition of vinegar (and pickle brine) as well as
with lemon juice. Then the conversation jumped to vitamin c.

Lemon or white vinegar as a dough conditioner
 

"Vox Humana" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Jenn Ridley" > wrote in message
> ...
> > "Vox Humana" > wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >"Janet Bostwick" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >>
> > >> "Dee Randall" <deedoveyatshenteldotnet> wrote in message
> > >> ...
> > >> > I was reading on the net at
> > >> >
> > >> > http://www.bread-bakers.com/archives...s/v098n011.txt
> > >> > a poster says:
> >
> > >> > "I have found out that bottled lemon juice/white vinegar is
probably
> one
> > >> of
> > >> > the cheapest sources of dough conditioners to start off with(
> > >tenderizers
> > >> > and relaxes the gluten in the recipe)."
> > >> > And
> > >> >
> > >> > "When I experimented
> > >> > with my dill pickle bread .. I was amazed that the bread was so
fine
> > >> > grained, light textured and fluffy- most likely from the pickle
> > >brine..."
> > >> >
> > >> > She doesn't give amounts - her recipe for her dill pickle bread
is
> no
> > >> > longer at that website.
> > >> >
> > >> > Can someone tell me why this might work?
> > >> > Thanks,
> > >> >
> > >> > Dee
> > >> >
> > >> Google alt.bread.recipes Roy Basan Vitamin C
> > >> Janet
> > >
> > >Except that vinegar doesn't contain any vitamin C.
> >
> > No, but it's a weak acid, as is ascorbic acid (vitamin C). I think
> > the acid is what make the difference, not the 'vitamin c' part.
>
> Vitamin c can function in two way in bread making. It can act as a
nutrient
> for the yeast and is sometimes added to the granules of instant dry active
> yeast. It can also facilitate gluten formation. The OP was talking about
> adding acid through the addition of vinegar (and pickle brine) as well as
> with lemon juice. Then the conversation jumped to vitamin c.
>
I offered the resource information as further reading. The OP was
interested in the topic(as I understood) of bread improver and how it works
and cost effectiveness. Roy Basan formulates bread, baked goods and flour
mix formulas at the industrial level and is a valuable resource regarding
the underlying basic chemistry of how bread works. His discussion of the
role of ascorbic acid (vitamin C) indicates how ascorbic acid works as a
bread improver. He also touches on citric acid and the effective difference
between citric acid and ascorbic acid. Because the Google Group search
parameters I provided links to a newsgroup discussion with several
participants involved, it is probably a good idea to read the entire
retrieved page rather than stopping at the first paragraph.

The OP could ping Roy for a detailed explanation on the pickle juice/lemon
juice question. He most often frequents alt.bread.recipes, but can also be
found at rec.food.sourdough as well as this group.

Janet

Lemon or white vinegar as a dough conditioner
 

"Janet Bostwick" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Vox Humana" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Jenn Ridley" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > "Vox Humana" > wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > >"Janet Bostwick" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > > >>
> > > >> "Dee Randall" <deedoveyatshenteldotnet> wrote in message
> > > >> ...
> > > >> > I was reading on the net at
> > > >> >
> > > >> > http://www.bread-bakers.com/archives...s/v098n011.txt
> > > >> > a poster says:
> > >
> > > >> > "I have found out that bottled lemon juice/white vinegar is
> probably
> > one
> > > >> of
> > > >> > the cheapest sources of dough conditioners to start off with(
> > > >tenderizers
> > > >> > and relaxes the gluten in the recipe)."
> > > >> > And
> > > >> >
> > > >> > "When I experimented
> > > >> > with my dill pickle bread .. I was amazed that the bread was so
> fine
> > > >> > grained, light textured and fluffy- most likely from the pickle
> > > >brine..."
> > > >> >
> > > >> > She doesn't give amounts - her recipe for her dill pickle bread
> is
> > no
> > > >> > longer at that website.
> > > >> >
> > > >> > Can someone tell me why this might work?
> > > >> > Thanks,
> > > >> >
> > > >> > Dee
> > > >> >
> > > >> Google alt.bread.recipes Roy Basan Vitamin C
> > > >> Janet
> > > >
> > > >Except that vinegar doesn't contain any vitamin C.
> > >
> > > No, but it's a weak acid, as is ascorbic acid (vitamin C). I think
> > > the acid is what make the difference, not the 'vitamin c' part.
> >
> > Vitamin c can function in two way in bread making. It can act as a
> nutrient
> > for the yeast and is sometimes added to the granules of instant dry
active
> > yeast. It can also facilitate gluten formation. The OP was talking
about
> > adding acid through the addition of vinegar (and pickle brine) as well
as
> > with lemon juice. Then the conversation jumped to vitamin c.
> >
> I offered the resource information as further reading. The OP was
> interested in the topic(as I understood) of bread improver and how it
works
> and cost effectiveness. Roy Basan formulates bread, baked goods and flour
> mix formulas at the industrial level and is a valuable resource regarding
> the underlying basic chemistry of how bread works. His discussion of the
> role of ascorbic acid (vitamin C) indicates how ascorbic acid works as a
> bread improver. He also touches on citric acid and the effective
difference
> between citric acid and ascorbic acid. Because the Google Group search
> parameters I provided links to a newsgroup discussion with several
> participants involved, it is probably a good idea to read the entire
> retrieved page rather than stopping at the first paragraph.
>
> The OP could ping Roy for a detailed explanation on the pickle juice/lemon
> juice question. He most often frequents alt.bread.recipes, but can also
be
> found at rec.food.sourdough as well as this group.

So, what's your take on dough improvers in home baking?

Lemon or white vinegar as a dough conditioner
 

"Vox Humana" > wrote in message
...
>
> So, what's your take on dough improvers in home baking?
>
>

I don' think that they are necessary. Dough improvers as we can buy them
usually contain some/all of the following: vital wheat gluten, powdered
milk, diastatic malt, lecithin and ascorbic acid. Retail brands of flour
usually already contain malt and ascorbic acid; many bread recipes call for
milk, eggs and oil, all of which condition and add loft and tenderness to
dough. Why add more? I sometimes use ascorbic acid and/or diastatic malt
for occasions where I am really pushing my dough to the limit with long
fermentation or proof. Because I use an organic flour, my flour has no
diastatic malt or ascorbic acid added as the retail brands do. But generally
one can overcome any problems by experimenting with flour and finding out
what it can or can't do, choosing the right flour for the job and using good
technique. I believe that most problems that home bakers encounter are the
result of either a too dry dough or underdeveloped gluten and both problems
can be solved by experience and technique. It seems that users of bread
machines have more problems achieving good results, but I don't have a bread
machine so I don't know if the problems are related to a special need
resulting from the use of the machine or if the user just doesn't understand
the ingredients, measurements etc.
Janet

Lemon or white vinegar as a dough conditioner
 

"Janet Bostwick" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Vox Humana" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > So, what's your take on dough improvers in home baking?
> >
> >
>
> I don' think that they are necessary. Dough improvers as we can buy them
> usually contain some/all of the following: vital wheat gluten, powdered
> milk, diastatic malt, lecithin and ascorbic acid. Retail brands of flour
> usually already contain malt and ascorbic acid; many bread recipes call
for
> milk, eggs and oil, all of which condition and add loft and tenderness to
> dough. Why add more? I sometimes use ascorbic acid and/or diastatic malt
> for occasions where I am really pushing my dough to the limit with long
> fermentation or proof. Because I use an organic flour, my flour has no
> diastatic malt or ascorbic acid added as the retail brands do. But
generally
> one can overcome any problems by experimenting with flour and finding out
> what it can or can't do, choosing the right flour for the job and using
good
> technique. I believe that most problems that home bakers encounter are
the
> result of either a too dry dough or underdeveloped gluten and both
problems
> can be solved by experience and technique. It seems that users of bread
> machines have more problems achieving good results, but I don't have a
bread
> machine so I don't know if the problems are related to a special need
> resulting from the use of the machine or if the user just doesn't
understand
> the ingredients, measurements etc.
> Janet

We agree on all points.

Lemon or white vinegar as a dough conditioner
 

"Vox Humana" > wrote in message
...
>
> We agree on all points.
>
Excellent!

Lemon or white vinegar as a dough conditioner
 

"Dee Randall" <deedoveyatshenteldotnet> wrote in message >...
... I was amazed that the bread was so fine
>
> grained, light textured and fluffy- most likely from the pickle brine...?
>
>
>
> She doesn?t give amounts - her recipe for her dill pickle bread is no
> longer at that website.
>
> Can someone tell me why this might work?
>

Picking brine consist fo salt, vineger and in some cases calcium
lactate.
If you analyze those sbu

IIRC Pickling brine consist of salt, vinegar, (and calcium lactate? in
commercial production)
If you look at this substances the functionality of it is contributing
both anions and cations in the dough system as well as providing some
acidity ( or change of pH).
If that poster is using high gluten flour then the presence of acid
will somewhat modify the gluten and make it more extensible. The
extensibility or tough gluten can contribute to the improvement of the
crumb structure.
The formation of hydrogen bonding within the protein intermolecular
/intramolecular structure can contribute to slight improvement.
Now the presence of ions such as sodium and calcium will also interact
with the gluten by promoting salt bridges that can also led to some
sort of gluten strenghtening. Calcium a divalent ion has a toughening
effect on the gluten strands.
Therefore the synergistic interaction of the components can confer
some improving effect but not that great. The whitening effect or the
brightening of the crumb structure is also due to the pH.
The improving effect does not usually happen if you are using weaker
flours.
Roy