I was reading on the net at

http://www.bread-bakers.com/archives...s/v098n011.txt



a poster says:



“I have found out that bottled lemon juice/white vinegar is probably one of

the cheapest sources of dough conditioners to start off with( tenderizers

and relaxes the gluten in the recipe).”



And

"When I experimented

with my dill pickle bread .. I was amazed that the bread was so fine

grained, light textured and fluffy- most likely from the pickle brine...”



She doesn’t give amounts - her recipe for her dill pickle bread is no
longer at that website.

Can someone tell me why this might work?



Thanks,

Dee

"Dee Randall" <deedoveyatshenteldotnet> wrote in message
...
> I was reading on the net at
>
> http://www.bread-bakers.com/archives...s/v098n011.txt
>
>
>
> a poster says:
>
>
>
> “I have found out that bottled lemon juice/white vinegar is probably one
of
>
> the cheapest sources of dough conditioners to start off with( tenderizers
>
> and relaxes the gluten in the recipe).”
>
>
>
> And
>
> "When I experimented
>
> with my dill pickle bread .. I was amazed that the bread was so fine
>
> grained, light textured and fluffy- most likely from the pickle brine...”
>
>
>
> She doesn’t give amounts - her recipe for her dill pickle bread is no
> longer at that website.
>
> Can someone tell me why this might work?

A low pH (acid) inhibits gluten formation. Cake flour is slightly acid (due
to chlorination) which helps to reduce gluten formation and reduce browning.
Sometimes I think that products like dough conditioners are solutions in
search for a problem. I would suggest that if your dough has so much gluten
that you can't work with it that you simply switch to a lower gluten flour.
Also, a crumb that is uniform, light, and fluffy is not necessarily a good
thing.

"Dee Randall" <deedoveyatshenteldotnet> wrote in message
...
> I was reading on the net at
>
> http://www.bread-bakers.com/archives...s/v098n011.txt
>
>
>
> a poster says:
>
>
>
> "I have found out that bottled lemon juice/white vinegar is probably one
of
>
> the cheapest sources of dough conditioners to start off with( tenderizers
>
> and relaxes the gluten in the recipe)."
>
>
>
> And
>
> "When I experimented
>
> with my dill pickle bread .. I was amazed that the bread was so fine
>
> grained, light textured and fluffy- most likely from the pickle brine..."
>
>
>
> She doesn't give amounts - her recipe for her dill pickle bread is no
> longer at that website.
>
> Can someone tell me why this might work?
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Dee
>
Google alt.bread.recipes Roy Basan Vitamin C
Janet

"Janet Bostwick" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Dee Randall" <deedoveyatshenteldotnet> wrote in message
> ...
> > I was reading on the net at
> >
> > http://www.bread-bakers.com/archives...s/v098n011.txt
> >
> >
> >
> > a poster says:
> >
> >
> >
> > "I have found out that bottled lemon juice/white vinegar is probably one
> of
> >
> > the cheapest sources of dough conditioners to start off with(
tenderizers
> >
> > and relaxes the gluten in the recipe)."
> >
> >
> >
> > And
> >
> > "When I experimented
> >
> > with my dill pickle bread .. I was amazed that the bread was so fine
> >
> > grained, light textured and fluffy- most likely from the pickle
brine..."
> >
> >
> >
> > She doesn't give amounts - her recipe for her dill pickle bread is no
> > longer at that website.
> >
> > Can someone tell me why this might work?
> >
> >
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Dee
> >
> Google alt.bread.recipes Roy Basan Vitamin C
> Janet

Except that vinegar doesn't contain any vitamin C.

"Vox Humana" > wrote:

>
>"Janet Bostwick" > wrote in message
...
>>
>> "Dee Randall" <deedoveyatshenteldotnet> wrote in message
>> ...
>> > I was reading on the net at
>> >
>> > http://www.bread-bakers.com/archives...s/v098n011.txt
>> > a poster says:

>> > "I have found out that bottled lemon juice/white vinegar is probably one
>> of
>> > the cheapest sources of dough conditioners to start off with(
>tenderizers
>> > and relaxes the gluten in the recipe)."
>> > And
>> >
>> > "When I experimented
>> > with my dill pickle bread .. I was amazed that the bread was so fine
>> > grained, light textured and fluffy- most likely from the pickle
>brine..."
>> >
>> > She doesn't give amounts - her recipe for her dill pickle bread is no
>> > longer at that website.
>> >
>> > Can someone tell me why this might work?
>> > Thanks,
>> >
>> > Dee
>> >
>> Google alt.bread.recipes Roy Basan Vitamin C
>> Janet
>
>Except that vinegar doesn't contain any vitamin C.

No, but it's a weak acid, as is ascorbic acid (vitamin C). I think
the acid is what make the difference, not the 'vitamin c' part.

jenn
--
Jenn Ridley

"Jenn Ridley" > wrote in message
...
> "Vox Humana" > wrote:
>
> >
> >"Janet Bostwick" > wrote in message
> ...
> >>
> >> "Dee Randall" <deedoveyatshenteldotnet> wrote in message
> >> ...
> >> > I was reading on the net at
> >> >
> >> > http://www.bread-bakers.com/archives...s/v098n011.txt
> >> > a poster says:
>
> >> > "I have found out that bottled lemon juice/white vinegar is probably
one
> >> of
> >> > the cheapest sources of dough conditioners to start off with(
> >tenderizers
> >> > and relaxes the gluten in the recipe)."
> >> > And
> >> >
> >> > "When I experimented
> >> > with my dill pickle bread .. I was amazed that the bread was so fine
> >> > grained, light textured and fluffy- most likely from the pickle
> >brine..."
> >> >
> >> > She doesn't give amounts - her recipe for her dill pickle bread is
no
> >> > longer at that website.
> >> >
> >> > Can someone tell me why this might work?
> >> > Thanks,
> >> >
> >> > Dee
> >> >
> >> Google alt.bread.recipes Roy Basan Vitamin C
> >> Janet
> >
> >Except that vinegar doesn't contain any vitamin C.
>
> No, but it's a weak acid, as is ascorbic acid (vitamin C). I think
> the acid is what make the difference, not the 'vitamin c' part.

Vitamin c can function in two way in bread making. It can act as a nutrient
for the yeast and is sometimes added to the granules of instant dry active
yeast. It can also facilitate gluten formation. The OP was talking about
adding acid through the addition of vinegar (and pickle brine) as well as
with lemon juice. Then the conversation jumped to vitamin c.

"Vox Humana" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Jenn Ridley" > wrote in message
> ...
> > "Vox Humana" > wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >"Janet Bostwick" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >>
> > >> "Dee Randall" <deedoveyatshenteldotnet> wrote in message
> > >> ...
> > >> > I was reading on the net at
> > >> >
> > >> > http://www.bread-bakers.com/archives...s/v098n011.txt
> > >> > a poster says:
> >
> > >> > "I have found out that bottled lemon juice/white vinegar is
probably
> one
> > >> of
> > >> > the cheapest sources of dough conditioners to start off with(
> > >tenderizers
> > >> > and relaxes the gluten in the recipe)."
> > >> > And
> > >> >
> > >> > "When I experimented
> > >> > with my dill pickle bread .. I was amazed that the bread was so
fine
> > >> > grained, light textured and fluffy- most likely from the pickle
> > >brine..."
> > >> >
> > >> > She doesn't give amounts - her recipe for her dill pickle bread
is
> no
> > >> > longer at that website.
> > >> >
> > >> > Can someone tell me why this might work?
> > >> > Thanks,
> > >> >
> > >> > Dee
> > >> >
> > >> Google alt.bread.recipes Roy Basan Vitamin C
> > >> Janet
> > >
> > >Except that vinegar doesn't contain any vitamin C.
> >
> > No, but it's a weak acid, as is ascorbic acid (vitamin C). I think
> > the acid is what make the difference, not the 'vitamin c' part.
>
> Vitamin c can function in two way in bread making. It can act as a
nutrient
> for the yeast and is sometimes added to the granules of instant dry active
> yeast. It can also facilitate gluten formation. The OP was talking about
> adding acid through the addition of vinegar (and pickle brine) as well as
> with lemon juice. Then the conversation jumped to vitamin c.
>
I offered the resource information as further reading. The OP was
interested in the topic(as I understood) of bread improver and how it works
and cost effectiveness. Roy Basan formulates bread, baked goods and flour
mix formulas at the industrial level and is a valuable resource regarding
the underlying basic chemistry of how bread works. His discussion of the
role of ascorbic acid (vitamin C) indicates how ascorbic acid works as a
bread improver. He also touches on citric acid and the effective difference
between citric acid and ascorbic acid. Because the Google Group search
parameters I provided links to a newsgroup discussion with several
participants involved, it is probably a good idea to read the entire
retrieved page rather than stopping at the first paragraph.

The OP could ping Roy for a detailed explanation on the pickle juice/lemon
juice question. He most often frequents alt.bread.recipes, but can also be
found at rec.food.sourdough as well as this group.

Janet

"Dee Randall" <deedoveyatshenteldotnet> wrote in message >...
... I was amazed that the bread was so fine
>
> grained, light textured and fluffy- most likely from the pickle brine...?
>
>
>
> She doesn?t give amounts - her recipe for her dill pickle bread is no
> longer at that website.
>
> Can someone tell me why this might work?
>

Picking brine consist fo salt, vineger and in some cases calcium
lactate.
If you analyze those sbu

IIRC Pickling brine consist of salt, vinegar, (and calcium lactate? in
commercial production)
If you look at this substances the functionality of it is contributing
both anions and cations in the dough system as well as providing some
acidity ( or change of pH).
If that poster is using high gluten flour then the presence of acid
will somewhat modify the gluten and make it more extensible. The
extensibility or tough gluten can contribute to the improvement of the
crumb structure.
The formation of hydrogen bonding within the protein intermolecular
/intramolecular structure can contribute to slight improvement.
Now the presence of ions such as sodium and calcium will also interact
with the gluten by promoting salt bridges that can also led to some
sort of gluten strenghtening. Calcium a divalent ion has a toughening
effect on the gluten strands.
Therefore the synergistic interaction of the components can confer
some improving effect but not that great. The whitening effect or the
brightening of the crumb structure is also due to the pH.
The improving effect does not usually happen if you are using weaker
flours.
Roy