Hi all,

I've been working on learning to make 100% whole wheat bread using
Laurel's Kitchen Bread Book. I think I've made enough of the basic
loaf to move on. And actually we aren't big sandwich bread people. We
mostly eat rustic style artisan loaves.

So I'm looking at recipe's from Carol Field's book think these might be
the kind of breads we are looking for however most of her recipes use
100% un-bleached all-purpose flour. I'd like to substitute with whole
wheat. At least start with a 50/50 ratio and then maybe 100% whole
wheat flour.

I used Bob's Red Mill organic whole wheat for my last "sandwich" loaf.
However I think with the high protein content this would not be equal
to the all-purpose flour. I'm pretty fuzzy on this topic. But if I'm
understanding correctly the King Arthur whole wheat would also be too
high in protein.

So which whole wheat matches unbleached all-purpose flour?

Thanks.
Vicki

I do not see the point of looking for a breadmaking wholewheat flour
that approxomates the protein of all purpose flour. Yes, there is but
that is a soft wholewheat flour much more of whole wheat pastry flour w
hich is unsuitable for breadmaking.
Consider the fact that hard wholewheat flour is definitely higher in
protein than all purpose or even bread flour due to the fact that whole
grain has more protein content than the white flour milled from the
same grain.
The bottom line is: you want to enjoy the goodness of 100% wholewheat
flour then by anymeans use any strong wholewheat flour available and
you will get the result that you want.
BTW, do not be misled by the belief that Carol field had a good baking
skill; first and foremost she was only a tourist who got caught the
baking bug visiting Italian bakeries and by charming Italian bakers to
give her a simplified version of their commerciali recipes.
Use any recipe from a good baking book and before you try to embark on
some real baking be sure you know the basics so that you will have
less likelihood of failure.
Using wholegrain flour for breadbaking can be tricky for beginners.
Do not dream on things that following some author you will be
transformed into a good baker. It is by constant practice that makes
you succeed in your baking hobby.

Roy

Roy,

Thanks for the response. I am following Laurel's Bread Book because it
is supposed to "the guide" regarding using whole wheat flour. However
most of the loaves in this book seem to be "sandwich" style which is
not what I want.

So I'm feeling kind of lost. I don't know how to look at recipe and
know if I will get the holey kind of texture I am looking for rather
than the dense sandwich kind of loaf.

I thought maybe find a book that concentrated on a "genre" might help
me out.

I agree I need to keep baking. In fact I'm obsessed - there are only
two of us in the house and I've made 5 loaves in the past 2 weeks. But
I don't have a clue how to get the bread I'm looking for.

Thanks.
Vicki

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> Hi all,
>
> I've been working on learning to make 100% whole wheat bread using
> Laurel's Kitchen Bread Book. I think I've made enough of the basic
> loaf to move on. And actually we aren't big sandwich bread people. We
> mostly eat rustic style artisan loaves.
>
> So I'm looking at recipe's from Carol Field's book think these might be
> the kind of breads we are looking for however most of her recipes use
> 100% un-bleached all-purpose flour. I'd like to substitute with whole
> wheat. At least start with a 50/50 ratio and then maybe 100% whole
> wheat flour.
>
> I used Bob's Red Mill organic whole wheat for my last "sandwich" loaf.
> However I think with the high protein content this would not be equal
> to the all-purpose flour. I'm pretty fuzzy on this topic. But if I'm
> understanding correctly the King Arthur whole wheat would also be too
> high in protein.
>
> So which whole wheat matches unbleached all-purpose flour?
>
> Thanks.
> Vicki

Looking at a few recipes in Carol Field's book, I see a few recipes there
which include whole wheat in the making of the recipe. Why not try to do
one of her recipes that call for whole wheat instead of revamping another
recipe and then worrying about whether what you did was because of your
revamping it.

Pane Toscano Scuro - Dark Tuscan Bread - pp. 112-115 calls for 3-3/4 cups
stone-ground whole-wheat flour to 1/4 cup unbleached all-purpose flour int
he dough. The starter calls for 1-1/2 cups unbleached all-purpose flour.
So this might be a good introduction to making whole-wheat bread; not too
much, too soon.

In this recipe she also uses enough yeast that won't be a detriment to the
fermentation. I have found her recipes which use so little yeast very
challenging.
Dee

wrote:
> Roy,
>
> Thanks for the response. I am following Laurel's Bread Book because
it
> is supposed to "the guide" regarding using whole wheat flour.
However
> most of the loaves in this book seem to be "sandwich" style which is
> not what I want.
>
> So I'm feeling kind of lost. I don't know how to look at recipe and
> know if I will get the holey kind of texture I am looking for rather
> than the dense sandwich kind of loaf.

A sandwich load is indeed dense due to the firmer doughs, optimum
mixing/dough development and tight molding process.
Many of those holey breads usually have softer doughs and because of
that texture there is a tendency for it to become more open
grained.Artisanal loaves are usually moulded into boules, batards and
blooomers not in pullman loaves.
The degree of mixing can also influence the crumb grain, a more
developed dough tend to result into even grain lighter crumb and
bigger volume . In comparison a less developed dough results in
uneven grain, slightly darker crumb with slightly less volume and I
think that is what you are looking for.A bread with more substance not
gas.
Therefore....
Mix the dough to half or just a maximum of two thirds developed but
give it more fermentation time and knockdowns, don't degass it much (
just like in sandwich breads preparation)but just fold the dough gently
in every knockdowns so that you will maintain the unevenness in grain.
Whether you mold it tighthy or a bit less doesnt matter the bread will
be uneven grained( a bit holey) when baked.

> I thought maybe find a book that concentrated on a "genre" might help
> me out.

I am not in the position to agree or disagree as I am never obsessed
with any book yet occasionally do read some interesting text that
caught my fancy.
It is not any book that will really help you achieve your goals; It
should be looked only as a guide (not looked as a holy bible or
somtthing similar).
Sometimes if you have to read books you will be focused on that
particular authors technique and you will become a fanatic of it an
would stunt your intellectual growth and baking skill and that should
not be the way.Never try to shower admiration to the author but rather
see if his technique is sensible or it make sense to you and you can
ably apply( if not duplicate it).
The wisdom of reading any baking book that incidentally caught your
interest is to extract its essence and not the rote memorization of
recipes and and step by step procedure.Try to understand the recipe
and technique from the bigger picture , and see how you can apply that
in your particular case and do not forget to apply a big dose of plain
commonsense.
And that what makes a good baker, and not the one who is just a
purveyor of recipes or a collector of baking books but had not gained
any wisdom .Instead of becoming a good baker he or she become instead a
book collector or a librarian who can qoute any passage of his/her
collection but barely understood what is all about;yet unable to do it
in practice, .

> I agree I need to keep baking. In fact I'm obsessed - there are only
> two of us in the house and I've made 5 loaves in the past 2 weeks.
But
> I don't have a clue how to get the bread I'm looking for.
>
I am pleased to hear that, as there is no royal road to the attainment
of good baking skill that can replace deligent practice; whether you
are bakery tradesman or just a hobbyist baker.

Roy

On Wed, 09 Feb 2005 15:10:29 -0800, Roy wrote:

> Mix the dough to half or just a maximum of two thirds developed but
> give it more fermentation time and knockdowns,

For the benefit of at least one beginner, how do you tell (without a
rheometer), when a dough is half to two thirds developed.

Felix Karpfen


--
Felix Karpfen
Public Key 72FDF9DF (DH/DSA)

Felix the degree of dough development( even in the absence of
rheological instruments like the farinograph and mixograph can be
noticed by the degree of dough coherence. This can be determined simply
by inspection and feeling of the dough texture which gradually changes
during the dough mixing process. .Any baker who has considerable
experience in dough preparation be he a hobbyist or a professional can
recognize at what level of dough development has been attained
It is not easy to explain this to a beginner for easier understanding
other than by actual experience and observation.
However there are some baking books that covers this aspect in some
detail.
For detailed explanation about this, you can check with E.J Pyler.
BAking Science and Technology ( two volume edition dedicated to the
practical and theoritical explanation of what happens in many aspects
of baking.).The explanation is more focused on commercial bread
production but can be applicable also to small scale dough preparation.
For a varied explanation but dedicated to artsanal baking using a
specimen of a french bread 'The Taste of Bread by Raymond Calvel. Here
calvel have a different idea how a bread dough should be mixed . He is
partial that the dough should be only be mixed nearly half developed
and no more.
It would provide you with more details in this area that is easily
understandable to any reader; be a bakery tradesman or a baking
enthusiast
Roy

On Fri, 11 Feb 2005 18:35:38 -0800, Roy wrote:

> Any baker who has considerable experience in dough preparation be he
> a hobbyist or a professional can recognize at what level of dough
> development has been attained It is not easy to explain this to a
> beginner

I am aware that there are baking enthusiasts who are able to derive
therapeutic benefits from _feeling_ a sticky mess turn into an elastic
dough. Regrettably, I do not have what it takes. So I have to make
do with a dough hook and appearances.

Also, I am suspicious of advice based on experience with manipulating
large quantities of dough (and its predecessors). The material handling
problems of large quantities of dough are irrelevant in a kitchen and
the needed temperature controls are different.

So I start to sit up when I read of:

giving 1000 rotations with a dough hook; the first third at low
speed and the other two thirds at a higher speed.

That information would be even more interesting if it related to a
Kenwood Chef and not a Kitchen Aid mixer - since I own one of the
former and the latter is probably not available in Australia.

> For a varied explanation but dedicated to artsanal baking using a
> specimen of a french bread 'The Taste of Bread by Raymond Calvel. Here
> calvel have a different idea how a bread dough should be mixed . He is
> partial that the dough should be only be mixed nearly half developed
> and no more.
>

I suspect that I have already been following his advice routinely.

And not from choice. I may have taken too seriously the possibility of
irreversible degradation of the dough caused by overmixing.

Thank you for the prompt response to my query.

Felix Karpfen

--
Felix Karpfen
Public Key 72FDF9DF (DH/DSA)

There is one easy way to see if the glutten in your dough is ready.
I'll try to explain it. Get a small piece of dough, about the size of
your thumb, from middle knuckle to end. Roll it around the palms of
your hand to make a ball. Now with your two thumbs and index fingers,
slowly start pulling the ball as if you were making taffy, on every
angle, slowly and gently. You will make a thin "window" in the
middle. If the "window" breaks, your dough needs to be worked
further. When you have your glutten ready, you should find the window
will be almost see though, not lumpy, very thin and somewhat elastic.
It's a very good method. It also allows you to feel the dough and get
used to the elasticity .
Hope this helps, it's so much easier to show this method than describe
it.
Cheers,
Lore







Felix Karpfen > wrote in message >...
> On Fri, 11 Feb 2005 18:35:38 -0800, Roy wrote:
>
> > Any baker who has considerable experience in dough preparation be he
> > a hobbyist or a professional can recognize at what level of dough
> > development has been attained It is not easy to explain this to a
> > beginner
>
> I am aware that there are baking enthusiasts who are able to derive
> therapeutic benefits from _feeling_ a sticky mess turn into an elastic
> dough. Regrettably, I do not have what it takes. So I have to make
> do with a dough hook and appearances.
>
> Also, I am suspicious of advice based on experience with manipulating
> large quantities of dough (and its predecessors). The material handling
> problems of large quantities of dough are irrelevant in a kitchen and
> the needed temperature controls are different.
>
> So I start to sit up when I read of:
>
> giving 1000 rotations with a dough hook; the first third at low
> speed and the other two thirds at a higher speed.
>
> That information would be even more interesting if it related to a
> Kenwood Chef and not a Kitchen Aid mixer - since I own one of the
> former and the latter is probably not available in Australia.
>
> > For a varied explanation but dedicated to artsanal baking using a
> > specimen of a french bread 'The Taste of Bread by Raymond Calvel. Here
> > calvel have a different idea how a bread dough should be mixed . He is
> > partial that the dough should be only be mixed nearly half developed
> > and no more.
> >
>
> I suspect that I have already been following his advice routinely.
>
> And not from choice. I may have taken too seriously the possibility of
> irreversible degradation of the dough caused by overmixing.
>
> Thank you for the prompt response to my query.
>
> Felix Karpfen

On 21 Feb 2005 11:48:01 -0800, (Lore
A.) wrote:

> You will make a thin "window" in the
>middle. If the "window" breaks, your dough needs to be worked
>further.

Howdy,

"Working" or kneading is not the only way to develop gluten.
It will also develop through hydration if the dough is just
put aside. Time will do the deed.

All the best,

--
Kenneth

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