I am in the market to buy a KitchenAid standing mixer, but am unsure
whether I should go for the 5qt (450watts) professional model or the
6qt (525 or the newer 575 watt) professional model. I generally do not
make too many cookies, but I do a lot of yeast breads and doughs --not
in large quantities, but frequently enough dough for 2-3 loaves at a
time.

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Her Subj. wrote:
> I am in the market to buy a KitchenAid standing mixer, but am unsure
> whether I should go for the 5qt (450watts) professional model or the
> 6qt (525 or the newer 575 watt) professional model. I generally do
not
> make too many cookies, but I do a lot of yeast breads and doughs
--not
> in large quantities, but frequently enough dough for 2-3 loaves at a
> time.
>
> Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Simple,...as you are planning to make more doughs than batters then
just get the more powerful machine with bigger bowl.

Her Subj. wrote:
> I am in the market to buy a KitchenAid standing mixer, but am unsure
> whether I should go for the 5qt (450watts) professional model or the
> 6qt (525 or the newer 575 watt) professional model. I generally do
not
> make too many cookies, but I do a lot of yeast breads and doughs
--not
> in large quantities, but frequently enough dough for 2-3 loaves at a
> time.
>
> Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Simple..... as you are making more doughs than batters get the more
powerful machine.

Her Subj. wrote:
> I am in the market to buy a KitchenAid standing mixer, but am unsure
> whether I should go for the 5qt (450watts) professional model or the
> 6qt (525 or the newer 575 watt) professional model. I generally do
not
> make too many cookies, but I do a lot of yeast breads and doughs
--not
> in large quantities, but frequently enough dough for 2-3 loaves at a
> time.
>
> Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Simple..... as you are making more doughs than batters get the more
powerful machine.

Her Subj. wrote:
> I am in the market to buy a KitchenAid standing mixer, but am unsure
> whether I should go for the 5qt (450watts) professional model or the
> 6qt (525 or the newer 575 watt) professional model. I generally do
not
> make too many cookies, but I do a lot of yeast breads and doughs
--not
> in large quantities, but frequently enough dough for 2-3 loaves at a
> time.
>
> Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Simple.... as you plan to make more doughs and less batters...get the
more powerful machine with the bigger bowl.

Her Subj. wrote:

>I am in the market to buy a KitchenAid standing mixer, but am unsure
>whether I should go for the 5qt (450watts) professional model or the
>6qt (525 or the newer 575 watt) professional model. I generally do not
>make too many cookies, but I do a lot of yeast breads and doughs --not
>in large quantities, but frequently enough dough for 2-3 loaves at a
>time.
>
>Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
>
>

I'd look at the recommended maximum capacity of the mixers and see which
can handle 3 loaves at a time. My old 4 1/2 quart KA can handle 2
without any real problems.

However, it's time to bring up the old KitchenAid reliability question.
Lots of people have complained that KA's just aren't what they used to
be. I don't know, since I bought mine in the 1970's and it's still
going strong.

However, I do have a few observations. The KA manual warns you to make
only a certain amount of dough at a time, and to rest the machine for a
certain length of time after you have mixed the dough. (If memory
serves, a 45 minute rest to cool off after making two batches of bread
in my ancient KA 45.) If you don't follow that advice, you risk your
machine's health.
Why? Pretty simple really. My old Hobart 30 quart mixer had a less
powerful motor than either of the mixers you are looking at. We ran it
for hours on end. It's older than I am, and I don't like talking about
how old I am.

Why did it last, when so many more powerful, smaller, mixers have died?

The commercial Hobart mixers have a single speed motor that always runs
at its optimum speed. The speed of the mixing head is changed by using
a transmission, much like a car has. You have to stop the mixer to
change gears, and then start it again.

The home KitchenAid has a variable speed motor. And, unfortunately, you
have to knead dough at low speeds. Where the work demands high torque.
And the motor has trouble delivering it. It's not KA being bad... it's
the laws of physics.

You might look at eBay for a used Hobart N-50 or 20 quart mixer, or for
a knock-off of these product at professional supply houses. Or you
might look at some of the other mixers on the retail market, such as the
Bosch (which I'm not crazy about) or Electrolux Assistent (which I've
heard good things about).

Mike

In article
therwhen.com>,
says...
> Her Subj. wrote:
>
> >I am in the market to buy a KitchenAid standing mixer, but am unsure
> >whether I should go for the 5qt (450watts) professional model or the
> >6qt (525 or the newer 575 watt) professional model. I generally do not
> >make too many cookies, but I do a lot of yeast breads and doughs --not
> >in large quantities, but frequently enough dough for 2-3 loaves at a
> >time.
> >
> >Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
> >
(snip)
>
> I'd look at the recommended maximum capacity of the mixers and see which
> can handle 3 loaves at a time. My old 4 1/2 quart KA can handle 2
> without any real problems.
>
> However, it's time to bring up the old KitchenAid reliability question.
> Lots of people have complained that KA's just aren't what they used to
> be. I don't know, since I bought mine in the 1970's and it's still
>
>
> You might look at eBay for a used Hobart N-50 or 20 quart mixer, or for
> a knock-off of these product at professional supply houses. Or you
> might look at some of the other mixers on the retail market, such as the
> Bosch (which I'm not crazy about) or Electrolux Assistent (which I've
> heard good things about).

No mention of the Magic Mill, the Swedish mixer? I swear by mine,
handles 10 cups of flour and barely gets warm, and the dough that comes
out is window pane wonderful. (I started out with the KitchenAid 5-quart
and gave up on it, because the only thing it had in common with Hobart
was the name.)

On Wed, 13 Apr 2005 09:02:01 -0600
Mike Avery > wrote:


> You might look at eBay for a used Hobart N-50 or 20 quart mixer, or for
> a knock-off of these product at professional supply houses. Or you
> might look at some of the other mixers on the retail market, such as the
> Bosch (which I'm not crazy about) or Electrolux Assistent (which I've
> heard good things about).


I'd be interested in seeing the Electrolux manual. This mixer is
advertised online as being capable of handling 15 pounds of dough, but i
wonder what the manual really says.

I'm curious because i routinely make about 10 pounds of bread dough at a
time in a 30 year old Bosch Universal, and I was thinking about the 7 quart
Kenwood which is advertised as being capable of handling 11 pounds of
dough.

The achilles heel of the Bosch is it's lack of a proper dasher for
medium consistency doughs - you're either making cakes or breads - cookies
will invariably, eventually, break your beaters. They have some new plastic
cookie mixer things that i haven't yet tried, but i don't have particularly
high hopes.

Yes, I know the butter is supposed to be soft before it goes in, but the
manual says to switch to the dough hook after creaming the eggs and butter
with the sugar, which doesn't really work. I suspect that the teeth on the
cookie attachment will break just like they do on the beaters, when the
beaters themselves don't break.

For what it's worth, I found the oldschool heavy duty stainless steel
bowl for my bosch at a thrift store - the type where the sole attachment is
the dough hook, and it connects at the bottom of the bowl instead of at
the top of a post. I find that this actually does a half decent job of
everything - cakes, cookies, whathaveyou. These bowls have been
discontinued for quite some time and distributors have long since run out
of old stock. If you want one, you'll have to look for one in some sort of
flea market, be it online or local.

Anyway, I found a pdf of the Kenwood manual at some point, and the fine
print is that you can make up to 11 pounds of *batter but only 7 pounds of
bread dough. This revelation was a real letdown.

So, for my future mixing needs, I'm back to considering the possibility
of finding a beat up old N-50, and having a shop overhaul the works, bead
blast the exterior, and give it a new baked enamel paint job - or maybe
have it powder coated. My Bosch is gonna die eventually, I can feel it.

LDR wrote:

>
>No mention of the Magic Mill, the Swedish mixer? I swear by mine,
>handles 10 cups of flour and barely gets warm, and the dough that comes
>out is window pane wonderful. (I started out with the KitchenAid 5-quart
>and gave up on it, because the only thing it had in common with Hobart
>was the name.)
>
The Magic Mill is no being sold as the Electrolux Assistent (I may have
their odd spelling wrong).

Mike

I'm not sure about all the differences between the two mixers but one
thing to look at is how the bowl is held by the mixer. In my mixer
which is a KA smaller one, the bown is held by a sort of screw in
fixture on the bottom. My mom's KA which is larger and circa 1975 has
two arms that come out around the bowl and hold it in. I think the
older model is superior as with tough dough sometimes my KA bowl pops
out of the fixture.

Good luck.

The Electrolux Assistent, DLX 2000, is one powerful machine, ideal for
big and small amounts of breads and heavy dough's, plus it has an extra
bowl for things like light batters and egg whites.
Kenwood good for cakes and sponges etc, KA I wouldn't even attempt bread
in mine, but it was a gift about 1 year ago.
I have all three, just my 2 cents worth............. qahtan



"Her Subj." > wrote in message
ups.com...
>I am in the market to buy a KitchenAid standing mixer, but am unsure
> whether I should go for the 5qt (450watts) professional model or the
> 6qt (525 or the newer 575 watt) professional model. I generally do not
> make too many cookies, but I do a lot of yeast breads and doughs --not
> in large quantities, but frequently enough dough for 2-3 loaves at a
> time.
>
> Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
>

http://www.breadbeckers.com/electrolux_assistent.htm shows it is the
other way around, and Magic Mill is the importer and provides the
warranty in the US... Magic Mill is in effect buying from Sweden
[Electrolux] and selling it in the US and Canada because Electrolux
does NOT sell it in North America.

http://www.nutritionlifestyles.com/dlx.htm says The Electrolux
Assistent (formerly Magic Mill Assistent) but it is still imported by
Magic Mill...

http://shop.bakerscatalogue.com/items/item5022.html [King Arthur]
claims it is a viable alternative to a Hobart...

http://www.pleasanthillgrain.com/mag..._dlx_mixer.asp shows the
usual and also has added components for a higher price but less than
if they were ordered separately. They also claim to have to bread
recipe books developed for the Assistent.

http://www.epinions.com/content_123440303748 for a long review by
someone who bought and was using one...

http://www.magicmillusa.com/ still shows it called the Magic Mill
Assistent but the site has not been updated since 2002...

The basic machine has been around since 1940, so it is 65 years old
and has not changed much in all that time. Most of the features are
identical, but modernised.

FWIW
RsH
------------------------------------------------------------
On Wed, 13 Apr 2005 10:34:05 -0600, Mike Avery
> wrote:

>LDR wrote:
>
>>
>>No mention of the Magic Mill, the Swedish mixer? I swear by mine,
>>handles 10 cups of flour and barely gets warm, and the dough that comes
>>out is window pane wonderful. (I started out with the KitchenAid 5-quart
>>and gave up on it, because the only thing it had in common with Hobart
>>was the name.)
>>
>The Magic Mill is no being sold as the Electrolux Assistent (I may have
>their odd spelling wrong).
>
>Mike

================================================== =====
>
Copyright retained. My opinions - no one else's...
If this is illegal where you are, do not read it!

"Mike Avery" > wrote in message
news:mailman.3.1113404520.62570.rec.food.baking@ma il.otherwhen.com...
> Her Subj. wrote:
>
>>I am in the market to buy a KitchenAid standing mixer, but am unsure
>>whether I should go for the 5qt (450watts) professional model or the
>>6qt (525 or the newer 575 watt) professional model. I generally do not
>>make too many cookies, but I do a lot of yeast breads and doughs --not
>>in large quantities, but frequently enough dough for 2-3 loaves at a
>>time.
>>
>>Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
>>
>
> I'd look at the recommended maximum capacity of the mixers and see which
> can handle 3 loaves at a time. My old 4 1/2 quart KA can handle 2 without
> any real problems.
>
> However, it's time to bring up the old KitchenAid reliability question.
> Lots of people have complained that KA's just aren't what they used to be.
> I don't know, since I bought mine in the 1970's and it's still going
> strong.
>
> However, I do have a few observations. The KA manual warns you to make
> only a certain amount of dough at a time, and to rest the machine for a
> certain length of time after you have mixed the dough. (If memory serves,
> a 45 minute rest to cool off after making two batches of bread in my
> ancient KA 45.) If you don't follow that advice, you risk your machine's
> health.
> Why? Pretty simple really. My old Hobart 30 quart mixer had a less
> powerful motor than either of the mixers you are looking at. We ran it
> for hours on end. It's older than I am, and I don't like talking about
> how old I am.
>
> Why did it last, when so many more powerful, smaller, mixers have died?
>
> The commercial Hobart mixers have a single speed motor that always runs at
> its optimum speed. The speed of the mixing head is changed by using a
> transmission, much like a car has. You have to stop the mixer to change
> gears, and then start it again.
>
> The home KitchenAid has a variable speed motor. And, unfortunately, you
> have to knead dough at low speeds. Where the work demands high torque.
> And the motor has trouble delivering it. It's not KA being bad... it's
> the laws of physics.
>
> You might look at eBay for a used Hobart N-50 or 20 quart mixer, or for a
> knock-off of these product at professional supply houses. Or you might
> look at some of the other mixers on the retail market, such as the Bosch
> (which I'm not crazy about) or Electrolux Assistent (which I've heard good
> things about).
>
> Mike

Perhaps you might look at my recent pictures of the KitchenAid problem
4-15-05.
I am not saying I would or wouldn't recommend a KitchenAid, but just take a
look at my experience.
http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com...iaster2005.htm
Dee

> Perhaps you might look at my recent pictures of the KitchenAid problem
> 4-15-05.
> I am not saying I would or wouldn't recommend a KitchenAid, but just take
> a look at my experience.
> http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com...veyFamilyPage/
kitchenaiddiaster2005.htm
> Dee
>
I have not heard anything good about the newer Kitchen Aids. I have 2
Kenwood Chefs and I love them!

Helen

>Perhaps you might look at my recent pictures of the KitchenAid problem

>4-15-05.
>I am not saying I would or wouldn't recommend a KitchenAid, but just
take a
>look at my experience.
>http://freepages.family.rootsw=ADeb....il=ADyPage/ki=
t=2E..

>Dee
Dee I am glad that your brought that matter out accompanied with
graphic pictures !
Its about time that folks here realize how flimsy is the construction
of that mixer
Several years back, I did have score of bad experience with Kitchen
Aide mixers,
It was common for gear oil to bleed while the machine was running while
mixing a dough; either a bread or a noodle dough.
..In another related experience my sponge batter being mixed failed to
aerate even after a quarter of an hour of high speed beating, I found
out that there were traces of gear oil that destroyed the foam. Another
experience was that the mixing speed change by itself for no reason.
I set it a medium, it goes to low and then to medium again .There are
other peculiarities that particular machine had ( I noticed) as if it
has a mind of its own<g>.
There are countless other bad experience that made me wary of such
mixers for continuous use in the kitchen.
If I had to use a kitchen aide even for cakes, After a series of 5
mixings I let it rest for an hour before I will use it again.
If I mix a bread dough I let it rest for a few hours before I do
another batch.
I never had that problem with the Hobart Mixers
That is why I preferred the heavy duty HobartN-50 and C-100 for my
small scale baking experiments (which satisfy my experiments that
require continuous repetitive trials). Even if it cost heaps compared
to the Kitchen Aide toy the Hobart machine is a an equipment to die
for<g>.
..=2EBased on that experience and a number of such mixers that conked down
in my baking trials over the years (which is contrary to the experience
of others in this newsgroup) made me reluctant to open heartedly
recommend such mixer for dough mixing unless you will use it rarely for
such purpose<g>
I was wondering if the higher capacity Kitchen aide mixer have that
problem that is common with their smaller sized models.
Besides those mixers are made in (Korea and never in the USA.
I never liked Korean made machines. Including their cars like
Hyundai,Daewoo and KIA are just like toy cars that won't last for
years like the Japanese made cars.
I won't even touch with 10 foot pole their Samsumg and LG brands of
home appliances nd electronic goods either.
Roy

On 24 Apr 2005 13:04:54 -0700
"Roy" > wrote:

> >Perhaps you might look at my recent pictures of the KitchenAid problem
>=20
> >4-15-05.
> >I am not saying I would or wouldn't recommend a KitchenAid, but just
> take a
> >look at my experience.
> >http://freepages.family.rootsw=ADeb....amil=ADyPage/=
kit
> >...
>=20
> >Dee
> Dee I am glad that your brought that matter out accompanied with
> graphic pictures !
> Its about time that folks here realize how flimsy is the construction
> of that mixer

> I was wondering if the higher capacity Kitchen aide mixer have that
> problem that is common with their smaller sized models.
> Besides those mixers are made in (Korea and never in the USA.
> I never liked Korean made machines. Including their cars like
> Hyundai,Daewoo and KIA are just like toy cars that won't last for
> years like the Japanese made cars.
> I won't even touch with 10 foot pole their Samsumg and LG brands of
> home appliances nd electronic goods either.


Samsung in particular has noticeably cleaned up their act in recent
years. LG is better than they used to be.=20

I think the bigger issue with Kitchen Aide is the fact that they're a
division of a company that makes crappy dishwashers. When they were part of
Hobart they were a-ok. That was a long time ago.=20

Even with such claim that those Korean companies are improving their
reputation I am still not open in using thier equipments but I still
love their cuisine <g>.

Regarding kitchen aide mixers whatever changes the do with their
equipments I will never think of buying their toys again.
They should sell those stuff in the Toy 'R' Us shops along with Lego
blocks<g>.
Kids who want to be bakers and pasty chefs someday may ask their
parents (legitimately) for such educational playthings.

"Roy" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Even with such claim that those Korean companies are improving their
> reputation I am still not open in using thier equipments but I still
> love their cuisine <g>.
>
> Regarding kitchen aide mixers whatever changes the do with their
> equipments I will never think of buying their toys again.
> They should sell those stuff in the Toy 'R' Us shops along with
> Lego
> blocks<g>.
> Kids who want to be bakers and pasty chefs someday may ask their
> parents (legitimately) for such educational playthings.

I'll have to let you know what I think of my new Samsung Frig.

http://tinyurl.com/b4nl5

In article .com>, "Roy" > wrote:
>>Perhaps you might look at my recent pictures of the KitchenAid problem
>
>>4-15-05.
>>I am not saying I would or wouldn't recommend a KitchenAid, but just
>take a
>>look at my experience.
>>http://freepages.family.rootsw=ADeb....il=ADyPage/ki=
>t=2E..
>
>>Dee
>Dee I am glad that your brought that matter out accompanied with
>graphic pictures !
>Its about time that folks here realize how flimsy is the construction
>of that mixer
> Several years back, I did have score of bad experience with Kitchen
>Aide mixers,
>It was common for gear oil to bleed while the machine was running while
>mixing a dough; either a bread or a noodle dough.
>..In another related experience my sponge batter being mixed failed to
>aerate even after a quarter of an hour of high speed beating, I found
>out that there were traces of gear oil that destroyed the foam. Another
>experience was that the mixing speed change by itself for no reason.
>I set it a medium, it goes to low and then to medium again .There are
>other peculiarities that particular machine had ( I noticed) as if it
>has a mind of its own<g>.
>There are countless other bad experience that made me wary of such
>mixers for continuous use in the kitchen.
>If I had to use a kitchen aide even for cakes, After a series of 5
>mixings I let it rest for an hour before I will use it again.
>If I mix a bread dough I let it rest for a few hours before I do
>another batch.
>I never had that problem with the Hobart Mixers
>That is why I preferred the heavy duty HobartN-50 and C-100 for my
>small scale baking experiments (which satisfy my experiments that
>require continuous repetitive trials). Even if it cost heaps compared
>to the Kitchen Aide toy the Hobart machine is a an equipment to die
>for<g>.
>..=2EBased on that experience and a number of such mixers that conked down
>in my baking trials over the years (which is contrary to the experience
>of others in this newsgroup) made me reluctant to open heartedly
>recommend such mixer for dough mixing unless you will use it rarely for
>such purpose<g>
>I was wondering if the higher capacity Kitchen aide mixer have that
>problem that is common with their smaller sized models.
>Besides those mixers are made in (Korea and never in the USA.
>I never liked Korean made machines. Including their cars like
>Hyundai,Daewoo and KIA are just like toy cars that won't last for
>years like the Japanese made cars.
>I won't even touch with 10 foot pole their Samsumg and LG brands of
>home appliances nd electronic goods either.
>Roy
>
I have always felt the same way about the cars and electronics but i have to
admit, Samsung has been making some very fine HDTV sets lately. They are
actually highly coveted compared to sony as of late.

> Samsung has been making some very fine HDTV sets lately. They are
>actually highly coveted compared to sony as of late.

Those Korean companies are trying to compensate the inferiority of
their product by riding the high technology band wagon, but that will
not remove the stigma from users who had bad experience with their
products previously.
I tell you, recently someone offered me a good price for latest
Samsung made Notebook computer and mobile phone but I bought the
higher priced HP Compaq and the Nokia respectively as these brands had
been my reliable workhorse for those devices .
People who are easily by good sales pitch from the aggressive
marketing technique of this companies ( like Samsung)are IMO not wise
buyers

On 25 Apr 2005 01:11:51 -0700
"Roy" > wrote:

> > Samsung has been making some very fine HDTV sets lately. They are
> >actually highly coveted compared to sony as of late.
>
> Those Korean companies are trying to compensate the inferiority of
> their product by riding the high technology band wagon, but that will
> not remove the stigma from users who had bad experience with their
> products previously.
> I tell you, recently someone offered me a good price for latest
> Samsung made Notebook computer and mobile phone but I bought the
> higher priced HP Compaq and the Nokia respectively as these brands had
> been my reliable workhorse for those devices .


I wouldn't buy anything from Carly Fiorina's incarnation of HP. My guess
is that laptop was actually manufactured by Acer - at least the one that i
inspected had nearly all Acer components. fwiw i wouldn't buy a Samsung
notebook either.

I'll give HP another shot in 4-5 years, the new guy may pull things
together.

As for Nokia, I've had three of their phones, and each successively
newer phone had fewer useful features and was harder to use. They had to
take out the calculator feature to let me personalize the ring tones, and
somewhere along the line they necessitated another button press and one
more tier in the menu . . . . Still beats the crap out of Qualcomm though,
I'll give 'em that.

Buying technologically improved gadgets can be both a bane and boon;
and I prefer to look for features that I am used to and not these new
things that only the kids could appreciate. But there are some
exceptions.
Regarding notebook computers the newer versions had better features
which makes computer use a lot easier and gives you more fun and , I
prefer this newer models which had more useful features than old ones.
In fact the model I have currently is already a magnificent example
of a desktop replacement system and my old desktop is starting to
gather dust due to neglect!
Regarding the mobile phones I prefer the old models that have fewer
features and that really amazes the reseller why I liked the state of
the art notebooks but would go for an already antiquated models for
mobile phones!
The same with mixers, I preferred the equipment that had been proven
for reliability and consistent performance for years and nothing beats
the good and loyal ol' HOBART mixers!
I think this is what hobbyist bakers should look for; If you are a
serious kitchen denizen and a dedicated baking& cooking enthusiast and
preferred a multipurpose durable machine, you should go for an
equipment that can last a life time.
You may have to cancel one of your annual vacation to save funds for
such equipment, but for sure you will be spending a great deal of your
time in the kitchen than in the beaches and cruise ships<g>.
Therefore the money invested on that equipment purchase would be what
we call a really, really wise one and you will be occasionally
congratulating yourself for such a good decision<g>.
Roy

On Mon, 25 Apr 2005, Eric Jorgensen wrote:

> As for Nokia, I've had three of their phones, and each successively
> newer phone had fewer useful features and was harder to use. They had to
> take out the calculator feature to let me personalize the ring tones, and
> somewhere along the line they necessitated another button press and one
> more tier in the menu . . . . Still beats the crap out of Qualcomm though,
> I'll give 'em that.

When did the calculator disappear? I just migrated to Cingular, and bought
a new Nokia (3120? I think...). It's not the best calculator, but it beats
the heck out of the one in the LG camera phones the rest of the family
got. What I'd *really* like would be a decent semi-scientific calc I could
download in Java!

Dave

On Mon, 25 Apr 2005, Roy wrote:

> The same with mixers, I preferred the equipment that had been proven
> for reliability and consistent performance for years and nothing beats
> the good and loyal ol' HOBART mixers!
> I think this is what hobbyist bakers should look for; If you are a
> serious kitchen denizen and a dedicated baking& cooking enthusiast and
> preferred a multipurpose durable machine, you should go for an
> equipment that can last a life time.
> Roy

Well said, and very good advice. However, for the *small* (quantity) home
baker (whether frequent or in-), is there a reasonable, scaled-down
version of the great Hobart, that can handle 5 to 7 quarts, instead of
20-plus?

Dave

At this juncture I cannot, in all good conscience, neither justify nor afford
a Hobart mixer, much as I might like to have one. I do have a Hobart era
KitchenAid.

If I had to replace a mixer just now, I would opt for the Viking 7 qt.
model. Both it and its smaller sister have all metal gears. While neither
have a long track record, I've seen no negative criticism on the product.

--
Wayne Boatwright
____________________________________________

Give me a smart idiot over a stupid genius any day.
Sam Goldwyn, 1882-1974

On Mon, 25 Apr 2005 12:34:06 -0700
Dave Bell > wrote:

> On Mon, 25 Apr 2005, Eric Jorgensen wrote:
>
> > As for Nokia, I've had three of their phones, and each successively
> > newer phone had fewer useful features and was harder to use. They had
> > to take out the calculator feature to let me personalize the ring
> > tones, and somewhere along the line they necessitated another button
> > press and one more tier in the menu . . . . Still beats the crap out of
> > Qualcomm though, I'll give 'em that.
>
> When did the calculator disappear? I just migrated to Cingular, and
> bought a new Nokia (3120? I think...). It's not the best calculator, but
> it beats the heck out of the one in the LG camera phones the rest of the
> family got. What I'd *really* like would be a decent semi-scientific calc
> I could download in Java!


I've been buying obsolete TDMA phones. My 6160 had the calculator, the
5160 (and 5165 for that matter) and 3360 do not.

I miss being able to pull out the phone and do rudimentary calculations
- I'm a compulsive comparison shopper, but i use an advanced an incredibly
fuzzy and cumbersome theory of comparison shopping where i ignore ads and
spend too much time wandering around in stores.

I end up doing a lot of price-per-unit calculation in my head that i
used to do on the phone, this allows me to determine, for example, that the
jumbo size roll of paper towels costs about 2% more per sheet than the
normal size roll. I then groan and buy it anyway because i prefer buying
paper towels less often.

But the math that i do in my head is a lot fuzzier, so, i recently
purchased this:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tem=4987316804

Some friends of mine have the phones that fold out into a full keyboard,
and can do just about anything on them.

My problem with the camera phones is the fact that the images are
typically of fairly poor quality and the fact that many carriers expect me
to pay them for the convenience of doing anything with them. I have a great
deal of contempt for the 'perceived value' pricing model that the telephone
service industry is based on. I've worked in the industry and know too well
what's on the other end of the perception.

Some providers disable the phone's ability to transfer images (and other
data, such as address books) over a data cable (or infrared, or bluetooth)
and then expect you to pay per image to have it transferred to you over
their network. I find this repugnant and refuse to play their game, so I'm
sticking with my $10 years-old phone and $15/mo service until i somehow
need more.

Not to say that i won't pay for quality when i see it. Getting excellent
shots out of my new Canon 5mpixel camera:

http://rubix.areb.org/gallery/20050425/img_0160

(of course, i did wait until Amazon briefly offered it for $30 less than
anyone else, and with free shipping too) (frugality is not for the
impatient or weak of heart)

Ironically, the only thing that's piqued my interest in high end phones
of late was an announcement from Samsung of all people that they are
planning to embed a 3 gigabyte hard drive in a feature-filled phone. If
they can cram a reasonably decent 3 megapixel or higher camera into that
as well . . . . . it will probably cost so much money that i still wouldn't
buy it.

There's a real mystique about the possibility of a device that can
replace my cell phone, digital camera, and palm pilot, but i don't predict
anyone doing it *well any time soon.

Dave Bell > wrote:

>On Mon, 25 Apr 2005, Roy wrote:
>
>> The same with mixers, I preferred the equipment that had been proven
>> for reliability and consistent performance for years and nothing beats
>> the good and loyal ol' HOBART mixers!
>> I think this is what hobbyist bakers should look for; If you are a
>> serious kitchen denizen and a dedicated baking& cooking enthusiast and
>> preferred a multipurpose durable machine, you should go for an
>> equipment that can last a life time.
>> Roy
>
>Well said, and very good advice. However, for the *small* (quantity) home
>baker (whether frequent or in-), is there a reasonable, scaled-down
>version of the great Hobart, that can handle 5 to 7 quarts, instead of
>20-plus?
>
>Dave


http://www.acemart.com/merchant.mv?S...Code=HOBN50-64

But it sure looks like my Hobart era Kitchen Aid.
--
Susan N.

"Moral indignation is in most cases two percent moral, 48 percent indignation, and 50 percent envy."
Vittorio De Sica, Italian movie director (1901-1974)

>Well said, and very good advice. However, for the *small* (quantity)
home
>baker (whether frequent or in-), is there a reasonable, scaled-down
>version of the great Hobart, that can handle 5 to 7 quarts, instead of

>20-plus?
I would recommend a 10 quart HOBART C-100 which is excellent for
small scale baking ranging from batters, doughs and pastes.
Here you can mix optiimally small scale doughs that range in
stiffness from bagels to ciabattas.
A kilogram flour base for any dough fits nicely and that is what should
every baking enthusiast do so he or she can apply both small the
commercial formula and larger scale homemade recipes.
The 20 qusrt model is over the top for the baking hobbyist. and need at
least 2 kilogram of llour to be of optimum performance for doughs.
Roy

The Cook wrote:

> http://www.acemart.com/merchant.mv?S...Code=HOBN50-64
>
>But it sure looks like my Hobart era Kitchen Aid.
>
>
It's pricey enough..... but it's better than your Hobart era
KitchenAid. The Hobart era KitchenAid mixers still had variable speed
motors, which are inherently at a disadvantage when kneading bread. The
motor is required to develop lots of torque when it's at low speed. And
electric motors don't like doing that.

The mixer in the picture, which has been made for a long, long time
(look on eBay for a hobart N-50 and you'll see some real antiques) has a
geared transmission. That means the mixer has only three speeds, but
they are three carefully chosen speeds. And it also means that the
motor is running at its optimum speed no matter what speed the mixer is
running at.

I have a Hobart era KitchenAid, a K45SS. And when I read the manual it
warns me that it can't knead more than two batches of bread in a row,
and that it then needs a 40 minute rest.

I wonder how many people with KitchenAid problems just assume it can
knead and knead and knead all day long.... until it fries. And then
it's a piece of junk in the eye of the purchaser.

Mike

In article
therwhen.com>,
Mike Avery > wrote:

> I have a Hobart era KitchenAid, a K45SS. And when I read the manual it
> warns me that it can't knead more than two batches of bread in a row,
> and that it then needs a 40 minute rest.
>
> I wonder how many people with KitchenAid problems just assume it can
> knead and knead and knead all day long.... until it fries. And then
> it's a piece of junk in the eye of the purchaser.


I think you're right -- I know that when I got my grinding attachment,
it clearly said to only use it for so long and then to let the machine
rest.

On the plus side, when my 4 year old, 5 qt KA died suddenly,
Williams-Sonoma replaced it. Since that model was out of production,
they let me pay the difference towards a new 6 qt model and I couldn't
be happier with it.

The bread I'm making has a big portion of pre-ferment, and an autolyse
phase, so the actual machine time is pretty darn short. I find that
pretty amazing actually, but it sure does it well. My big workout
personally is moving it in the kitchen because it's too tall to sit on
my counter! :-)

I've made double batches of cookies and it makes it look SO easy (and
heck the co-workers never complain, eh?)

I think what I learned in my experience was that it was worth buying a
good product from a company that would stand behind what it sells. My
next purchase will be an extra bowl for it.

--
Mary Beth
Orientation::Quilter
http://www.quiltr.com
http://www.fruitcakesociety.org
http://homepage.mac.com/mbgoodman/bread05/

On Mon, 25 Apr 2005 17:39:56 -0600
Mike Avery > wrote:


> I wonder how many people with KitchenAid problems just assume it can
> knead and knead and knead all day long.... until it fries. And then
> it's a piece of junk in the eye of the purchaser.


That and the nylon gears, and lack of an overload breaker on the motor.

"The Cook" > wrote in message
...
> Dave Bell > wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 25 Apr 2005, Roy wrote:
>>
>>> The same with mixers, I preferred the equipment that had been
>>> proven
>>> for reliability and consistent performance for years and nothing
>>> beats
>>> the good and loyal ol' HOBART mixers!
>>> I think this is what hobbyist bakers should look for; If you are
>>> a
>>> serious kitchen denizen and a dedicated baking& cooking
>>> enthusiast and
>>> preferred a multipurpose durable machine, you should go for an
>>> equipment that can last a life time.
>>> Roy
>>
>>Well said, and very good advice. However, for the *small* (quantity)
>>home
>>baker (whether frequent or in-), is there a reasonable, scaled-down
>>version of the great Hobart, that can handle 5 to 7 quarts, instead
>>of
>>20-plus?
>>
>>Dave
>
>
> http://www.acemart.com/merchant.mv?S...Code=HOBN50-64
>
> But it sure looks like my Hobart era Kitchen Aid.

It says Hobart and the price sounds like Hobart.

Freecyclemom

Mike Avery wrote:
....

> I have a Hobart era KitchenAid, a K45SS.

....

Does that mean, that all K45SS do incorporate the technology of Hobart
era KAs?
I bought mine (K45SS 250W 220V for Europe) a month ago as a special
edition called "Classic". The Motor does sound very sturdy to me - a lot
different from the "Ultra Power" my friends have at home, but I did not
yet open it to search for any nylon parts.

Or is it just the normal modern machine with all it`s weaknesses?

Joschi

--
Address: To mail me: Please change gml to gmx.

Eric Jorgensen wrote:

>On Mon, 25 Apr 2005 17:39:56 -0600
>Mike Avery > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>>I wonder how many people with KitchenAid problems just assume it can knead and knead and knead all day long.... until it fries. And then it's a piece of junk in the eye of the purchaser.
>>
>>
>
>That and the nylon gears, and lack of an overload breaker on the motor.
>
The nylon gear has been a part of the K45 series since, at least, the
late 1970's when I bought my mixer. It is, whether you like it or not,
a reasonable design feature. It allows repair by replacing an
inexpensive nylon gear, rather than requiring the mixer to be striped
down, degreased, and relubed to remove the metal fragments when a metal
gear fails.

There is ALWAYS a weakest spot in any design. With the nylon gear, it's
easily repairable. With all metal gears, there is no telling which gear
would fail.

I've used my mixer heavilly since I bought it in the late 70's. The
nylon gear hasn't failed. Despite heavy and frequent use.

If modern KA's are failing too often, something I can't judge, I don't
think its due to the nylon gear.

Mike

Eric Jorgensen wrote:

>On Mon, 25 Apr 2005 17:39:56 -0600
>Mike Avery > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>>I wonder how many people with KitchenAid problems just assume it can knead and knead and knead all day long.... until it fries. And then it's a piece of junk in the eye of the purchaser.
>>
>>
>
>That and the nylon gears, and lack of an overload breaker on the motor.
>
The nylon gear has been a part of the K45 series since, at least, the
late 1970's when I bought my mixer. It is, whether you like it or not,
a reasonable design feature. It allows repair by replacing an
inexpensive nylon gear, rather than requiring the mixer to be striped
down, degreased, and relubed to remove the metal fragments when a metal
gear fails.

There is ALWAYS a weakest spot in any design. With the nylon gear, it's
easily repairable. With all metal gears, there is no telling which gear
would fail.

I've used my mixer heavilly since I bought it in the late 70's. The
nylon gear hasn't failed. Despite heavy and frequent use.

If modern KA's are failing too often, something I can't judge, I don't
think its due to the nylon gear.

Mike

Joschi Kley wrote:

> Mike Avery wrote:
>
>> I have a Hobart era KitchenAid, a K45SS.
>
> Does that mean, that all K45SS do incorporate the technology of Hobart
> era KAs?
> I bought mine (K45SS 250W 220V for Europe) a month ago as a special
> edition called "Classic". The Motor does sound very sturdy to me - a
> lot different from the "Ultra Power" my friends have at home, but I
> did not yet open it to search for any nylon parts.
>
> Or is it just the normal modern machine with all it`s weaknesses?
>
>
Hard to say. The nylon part is, except to some people who seem to enjoy
whinging, a non-issue. It will fail when the machine is abused, and
since the failure point is known, the cost of repairs is minimized.

ANY machine can and will fail when abused long enough and hard enough.
My 70's vintage KA has the nylon gear. Neither the mixer nor the gear
have failed yet.

As a side note, the issues with KA's failing do not have to do with the
wattage of the motor. When we were running a bakery we had an ancient
Hobart which was only a 300 or 400 watt mixer. It mixed 30 quarts of
dough with aplomb. All day long, batch after batch.

The issue is, at risk of repeating myself, that Hobart mixers have
transmissions and single speed motors. Thus, the motor is always
running at its optimum speed. Variable speed motors, such as are used
in most consumer products, have an inherent problem. Kneading bread
takes lots of torque and power. But it has to be delivered at a low
speed, since dough should be kneaded slowly. And that is where
electrical motors are least able to deliver torque and power. Which
causes motors to overheat and fail.

Mike

On Tue, 26 Apr 2005 08:35:12 -0600
Mike Avery > wrote:

> Eric Jorgensen wrote:
>
> >On Mon, 25 Apr 2005 17:39:56 -0600
> >Mike Avery > wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >>I wonder how many people with KitchenAid problems just assume it can
> >knead and knead and knead all day long.... until it fries. And then
> >it's a piece of junk in the eye of the purchaser. >
> >>
> >
> >That and the nylon gears, and lack of an overload breaker on the motor.
> >
> The nylon gear has been a part of the K45 series since, at least, the
> late 1970's when I bought my mixer. It is, whether you like it or not,
> a reasonable design feature. It allows repair by replacing an
> inexpensive nylon gear, rather than requiring the mixer to be striped
> down, degreased, and relubed to remove the metal fragments when a metal
> gear fails.
>
> There is ALWAYS a weakest spot in any design. With the nylon gear, it's
> easily repairable. With all metal gears, there is no telling which gear
> would fail.


It's a very smart design feature that allows them to make a cheap
machine that fails in a predictable way.

What i would prefer is an actual circuit breaker that trips when the
motor is drawing too much power and is thus straining too hard. Given an
appropriate circuit breaker, the metal gear would never have the
opportunity to strip out.

I think Whirlpool wouldn't consider that a feature, because people would
call their mixers 'weak' for refusing to turn when overloaded. Also, the
motors would last longer because it would be a real hassle to run them
overloaded, and that means fewer sales.

So they'd have to use a stronger motor, which would cost more money,
which doesn't make sense because most of the people who buy their mixers
treat it essentially like a fashion accessory, occasionally using it for a
single loaf of bread or a batch of cookies as a function of domestic bliss,
or occasionally to attempt a recipe they saw on tv.

I have a similar complaint about consumer grade ice cream mixers - why
does every single one of them tell you it's done mixing by stalling and
overheating? Needs a breaker that turns off the motor at the appropriate
level of resistance from the work load.


> I've used my mixer heavilly since I bought it in the late 70's. The
> nylon gear hasn't failed. Despite heavy and frequent use.
>
> If modern KA's are failing too often, something I can't judge, I don't
> think its due to the nylon gear.


I have to admit that the only one I've personally seen fail in recent
years, probably didn't break the gear. It was a 2 year old KA
"Professional" that, I'm told, when mixing a double batch of cookies, just
plain stopped.

Doesn't so much as hum when switched on now. Can't find anything
physically wrong with it. It just doesn't turn on.

So they bought a Bosch Universal instead. Which i found very odd
considering they'd just gone on the atkins diet.

They used it to make some atkins-friendly muffins. At least the recipe
says they're muffins. It turns out that when you mix "high protein" flour
on high for 5 minutes you get a substance not unlike rubber.

I don't see why we argue about this. A lot of people like the KA just
fine and they can keep using them. If people ask my opinion I'll tell 'em
what i think of them. For most people they're probably just fine.

If you bake heavily, like your life depends on it, it might let you
down, or you may have preconceptions that may turn out to be disastrous.

This is the way i was brought up - 5th of 8 kids, Bosch Universal
cranking out between 7 and 11 loaves of whole wheat bread per week, up to
six loaves per batch. My eldest sister still uses the Bosch we bought in
about 1978, mom bought a new one in '89 iirc. Every member of the family
without exception learned how to cook and bake at a very young age, and Dad
taught all of us how to make bread as soon as we were strong enough to
shape the loaves.

I could make spaghetti when i was 3, I could make it *well when i was 4.
Cookies, cakes, biscuits, etc, on my own by about 7. Bread at 10, iirc.
I'm not talking about hanging around Mom and fetching ingredients, I'm
talking about being the only person in the kitchen and occasionally having
to ask someone a question. Remarkably, nobody was badly injured. Cut my
finger once dicing some carrots, that's about it.

People worry about kids in the kitchen but honestly the only hard part
is proper knife handling. Aside from that the rules are "don't touch things
that are hot" and "don't stick tools in the mixer when it's running"

As for me, Whirlpool is on my list of vendors of last resort. Something
about loathing every appliance I've ever used with their mark on it. The
bane of my existence as a cook and baker is the Whirlpool range in this
apartment. I'll never buy anything from the washing machine company if i
can avoid it, and that's just the way it is.

So i have a clear and stated bias against the KA, but i also have
rational objections to their design.

You know what kills me? Every cook on FoodTV except Jacques Torres uses
a KA. Jacques has his Hobart N-50 prominently displayed, but what does he
use it for?! Nothing but meringue and ganache! And it's not even proper
meringue!

There used to be another pastry chef on another show, and she had an
N-50 as well, and also used it only for the light and fluffy . . . .

Eric Jorgensen wrote:

>I don't see why we argue about this. A lot of people like the KA just
>fine and they can keep using them. If people ask my opinion I'll tell 'em what i think of them. For most people they're probably just fine.
>
The big issue for me is that I think people don't like KA's for the
wrong reasons. "The nylon gear!" is used as a reason to hate KA's and
Whirlpool. But, the gear predates Whirlpool's aquisition of KA from Hobart.

Since I don't have a Whirlpool era KA, I don't know how much the product
has gone downhill. Or if it has at all. Every manufacturer makes its
share of lemons, and the KA that started leaking oi is clearly a quality
control issues. Still, I am not sure how much of the KA reliability
issue is due to people who don't read the manual, overuse the machines,
and then complain that the product is inferior.

Mike

I mix my bread (up to 6-8 loaves at a time) in my Universal Bread Pail.
It never stalls, never breaks, works like a champ, and you don't even
have to plug it in. They ususally cost only about $20 on Ebay to boot
(make sure you get the clamp!). Sometimes old technology has its place.

If you're feeling lazy you can chuck a dough hook into your drill press
(you have one, right?) and do some serious kneading. For the price of a
low-end KitchenAid you can get an industrial-stength motor built to
crank that kind of load all day long. Plus it has a vast number of other
uses.

I have an electric mixer but it goes virtually unused. A spoon, a wire
whisk, or the bread pail are almost always faster, easier and more
convenient as well as providing better feedback about what's going on in
the bowl.

Roger

On Tue, 26 Apr 2005, Roger wrote:

> If you're feeling lazy you can chuck a dough hook into your drill press
> (you have one, right?) and do some serious kneading. For the price of a
> low-end KitchenAid you can get an industrial-stength motor built to
> crank that kind of load all day long. Plus it has a vast number of other
> uses.
>
> Roger

Huh! Now, that's an interesting idea!
I'll have to look at mine, but I'm not sure how slow I can get it to run.
What's a good RPM for bread kneading, anyway?!?

Dave