Dee Randall wrote:
> I posted this on another newsgroup, but didn't get any thoughts about it, so
> I will try here. It's a puzzlement for me. I'm trying to figure out why a
> bread while baking will 'sometimes' give off a vinegary smell.
>
> Here goes:
>
> While the bread was baking (see previous posting: Dough Soup in FP -
> Hydration Formula) consisting of
>
> 14.6 oz. bread flour (my interpretation of 3-1/4 cups flour)
> 1-1/2 cups water (90 degrees)
> 2 tsp. instant yeast
> 1 tsp. salt
>
> The hydration was 82% (proud that I can say what my hydration was, thanks!)
> baked in a 425 degree oven (2 stones heated 45 minutes) water in container
> inside oven, spraying water in oven 3x, baking 25 minutes, I detected an
> odor of vinegar - maybe it could even be described as a slight amonia odor.
> I am familiar with this odor while cooking bread, as it happens
> occasionally, but seldom. I am certainly aware of this smell, as one time I
> had visitors and at that time it was a heavy vinegar odor that occurred and
> I got a thorough teasing by some non-bread bakers.
>
> After sitting 30 minutes and smelling the bread, it has no hint of this
> odor. I haven't cut it yet, but the outside color is good, and the crust is
> a medium softness. I did take the inside temperature - 205.
>
> This smell is not similar to a sourdough starter gone astray.
> Thanks so much.
> Dee


On the information you have given I would think it would be a yeast
problem. insufficient first rise or a partly dead yeast.

The other possibility if you are using your normal kitchen oven is a
contaminent (grease spatter on oven walls) which is being activated by
your water spray.

do you use vinegar solution for cleaning stuff? maybe
you are getting the smell every time you back the first
time after a thorough cleaning...

irax.
http://fusionrasoi.blogspot.com

"Iraxl Enb" > wrote in message
...
> do you use vinegar solution for cleaning stuff? maybe you are getting the
> smell every time you back the first time after a thorough cleaning...
>
> irax.
> http://fusionrasoi.blogspot.com

Thanks for replying.
No, this is definitely not it. I use a self-cleaning oven.
It happens sporadically and it is a chemical reaction of some sort when the
bread bakes. It happens with any kind of bread I bake. Dee

> wrote in message
ups.com...
>
>
> Dee Randall wrote:
>> I posted this on another newsgroup, but didn't get any thoughts about it,
>> so
>> I will try here. It's a puzzlement for me. I'm trying to figure out why
>> a
>> bread while baking will 'sometimes' give off a vinegary smell.
>>
>> Here goes:
>>
>> While the bread was baking (see previous posting: Dough Soup in FP -
>> Hydration Formula) consisting of
>>
>> 14.6 oz. bread flour (my interpretation of 3-1/4 cups flour)
>> 1-1/2 cups water (90 degrees)
>> 2 tsp. instant yeast
>> 1 tsp. salt
>>
>> The hydration was 82% (proud that I can say what my hydration was,
>> thanks!)
>> baked in a 425 degree oven (2 stones heated 45 minutes) water in
>> container
>> inside oven, spraying water in oven 3x, baking 25 minutes, I detected an
>> odor of vinegar - maybe it could even be described as a slight amonia
>> odor.
>> I am familiar with this odor while cooking bread, as it happens
>> occasionally, but seldom. I am certainly aware of this smell, as one
>> time I
>> had visitors and at that time it was a heavy vinegar odor that occurred
>> and
>> I got a thorough teasing by some non-bread bakers.
>>
>> After sitting 30 minutes and smelling the bread, it has no hint of this
>> odor. I haven't cut it yet, but the outside color is good, and the crust
>> is
>> a medium softness. I did take the inside temperature - 205.
>>
>> This smell is not similar to a sourdough starter gone astray.
>> Thanks so much.
>> Dee
>
>
> On the information you have given I would think it would be a yeast
> problem. insufficient first rise or a partly dead yeast.
>
> The other possibility if you are using your normal kitchen oven is a
> contaminent (grease spatter on oven walls) which is being activated by
> your water spray.

Thanks for your reply.
In the last bread baking that prompted me to post a query, I have since used
the yeast from the same container and there was no problem with a vinegar
smell coming from the bread while baking.

I did write an email wondering if a dirty oven would prompt an odor to taint
my bread, but I would expect in that case for the odor to remain in the
bread. The smell I am describing comes only while baking the bread and
doesn't remain. It is quite strong while baking, an amonia-type smell.
Thanks for your consideration,
My best,
Dee

Dee Randall wrote:
> I posted this on another newsgroup, but didn't get any thoughts about it, so
> I will try here. It's a puzzlement for me. I'm trying to figure out why a
> bread while baking will 'sometimes' give off a vinegary smell.
>
> Here goes:
>
> While the bread was baking (see previous posting: Dough Soup in FP -
> Hydration Formula) consisting of
>
> 14.6 oz. bread flour (my interpretation of 3-1/4 cups flour)
> 1-1/2 cups water (90 degrees)
> 2 tsp. instant yeast
> 1 tsp. salt
>
> The hydration was 82% (proud that I can say what my hydration was, thanks!)
> baked in a 425 degree oven (2 stones heated 45 minutes) water in container
> inside oven, spraying water in oven 3x, baking 25 minutes, I detected an
> odor of vinegar - maybe it could even be described as a slight amonia odor.
> I am familiar with this odor while cooking bread, as it happens
> occasionally, but seldom. I am certainly aware of this smell, as one time I
> had visitors and at that time it was a heavy vinegar odor that occurred and
> I got a thorough teasing by some non-bread bakers.
>
> After sitting 30 minutes and smelling the bread, it has no hint of this
> odor. I haven't cut it yet, but the outside color is good, and the crust is
> a medium softness. I did take the inside temperature - 205.
>
> This smell is not similar to a sourdough starter gone astray.
> Thanks so much.
> Dee


Could you be overproofing the dough? If I let dough rise too long it
will sometimes turn sour. When the yeast feeds on the sugar in the
dough it forms carbon dioxide and alcohol. The carbon dioxide is what
makes the bread rise and the alcohol evaporates during the baking
process. If the dough rises too long then the alcohol breaks down even
further into vinegar.

> wrote in message
oups.com...
>
>
> Dee Randall wrote:
>> I posted this on another newsgroup, but didn't get any thoughts about it,
>> so
>> I will try here. It's a puzzlement for me. I'm trying to figure out why
>> a
>> bread while baking will 'sometimes' give off a vinegary smell.
>>
>> Here goes:
>>
>> While the bread was baking (see previous posting: Dough Soup in FP -
>> Hydration Formula) consisting of
>>
>> 14.6 oz. bread flour (my interpretation of 3-1/4 cups flour)
>> 1-1/2 cups water (90 degrees)
>> 2 tsp. instant yeast
>> 1 tsp. salt
>>
>> The hydration was 82% (proud that I can say what my hydration was,
>> thanks!)
>> baked in a 425 degree oven (2 stones heated 45 minutes) water in
>> container
>> inside oven, spraying water in oven 3x, baking 25 minutes, I detected an
>> odor of vinegar - maybe it could even be described as a slight amonia
>> odor.
>> I am familiar with this odor while cooking bread, as it happens
>> occasionally, but seldom. I am certainly aware of this smell, as one
>> time I
>> had visitors and at that time it was a heavy vinegar odor that occurred
>> and
>> I got a thorough teasing by some non-bread bakers.
>>
>> After sitting 30 minutes and smelling the bread, it has no hint of this
>> odor. I haven't cut it yet, but the outside color is good, and the crust
>> is
>> a medium softness. I did take the inside temperature - 205.
>>
>> This smell is not similar to a sourdough starter gone astray.
>> Thanks so much.
>> Dee
>
>
> Could you be overproofing the dough? If I let dough rise too long it
> will sometimes turn sour. When the yeast feeds on the sugar in the
> dough it forms carbon dioxide and alcohol. The carbon dioxide is what
> makes the bread rise and the alcohol evaporates during the baking
> process. If the dough rises too long then the alcohol breaks down even
> further into vinegar.

Thanks so much for this explanation. I will, indeed, pay strict attention
the next time it does release this odor, to recall any overproofing of the
dough. I'll bet this is the problem; sounds scientifically reasonable to
me - but I have limited brain capacity when it comes to logic and science.

You know, sometimes a recipe (on the first rise) will say "let it rise until
double, or two hours; if it rises to double before the 2 hours, degas it,
then let it rise to the point where it would have been double, if it hadn't
been degassed." So, do you think that the degassing (when it has risen to
the double point before the 2 hours) does eliminate the bread turning sour?

More questions, but
My appreciation,
Dee

> Dee Randall wrote:
> > I posted this on another newsgroup, but didn't get any thoughts about it, so
> > I will try here. It's a puzzlement for me. I'm trying to figure out why a
> > bread while baking will 'sometimes' give off a vinegary smell.
> >
> > Here goes:
> >
> > While the bread was baking (see previous posting: Dough Soup in FP -
> > Hydration Formula) consisting of
> >
> > 14.6 oz. bread flour (my interpretation of 3-1/4 cups flour)
> > 1-1/2 cups water (90 degrees)
> > 2 tsp. instant yeast
> > 1 tsp. salt
> >
> > The hydration was 82% (proud that I can say what my hydration was, thanks!)
> > baked in a 425 degree oven (2 stones heated 45 minutes) water in container
> > inside oven, spraying water in oven 3x, baking 25 minutes, I detected an
> > odor of vinegar - maybe it could even be described as a slight amonia odor.
> > I am familiar with this odor while cooking bread, as it happens
> > occasionally, but seldom. I am certainly aware of this smell, as one time I
> > had visitors and at that time it was a heavy vinegar odor that occurred and
> > I got a thorough teasing by some non-bread bakers.
> >
> > After sitting 30 minutes and smelling the bread, it has no hint of this
> > odor. I haven't cut it yet, but the outside color is good, and the crust is
> > a medium softness. I did take the inside temperature - 205.
> >
> > This smell is not similar to a sourdough starter gone astray.
> > Thanks so much.
> > Dee

Acetic acid is a by product of bread fermentation. Yeasts throw off
alcohol, carbon dioxide and acids with acetic acid being the most
prevalent. Acetic acid levels are highest in breads made with a poolish
(did you do that) or with natural yeasts (and you did say you weren't
making sourdough). The longer the fermentation, the higher the levels
of acids. How long did your dough ferment?

I've noticed when I've had this problem that the smell dissipates by the
time the bread is cooled and ready to eat.

marcella

"Marcella Peek" > wrote in message
...
>
>> Dee Randall wrote:
>> > I posted this on another newsgroup, but didn't get any thoughts about
>> > it, so
>> > I will try here. It's a puzzlement for me. I'm trying to figure out
>> > why a
>> > bread while baking will 'sometimes' give off a vinegary smell.
>> >
>> > Here goes:
>> >
>> > While the bread was baking (see previous posting: Dough Soup in FP -
>> > Hydration Formula) consisting of
>> >
>> > 14.6 oz. bread flour (my interpretation of 3-1/4 cups flour)
>> > 1-1/2 cups water (90 degrees)
>> > 2 tsp. instant yeast
>> > 1 tsp. salt
>> >
>> > The hydration was 82% (proud that I can say what my hydration was,
>> > thanks!)
>> > baked in a 425 degree oven (2 stones heated 45 minutes) water in
>> > container
>> > inside oven, spraying water in oven 3x, baking 25 minutes, I detected
>> > an
>> > odor of vinegar - maybe it could even be described as a slight amonia
>> > odor.
>> > I am familiar with this odor while cooking bread, as it happens
>> > occasionally, but seldom. I am certainly aware of this smell, as one
>> > time I
>> > had visitors and at that time it was a heavy vinegar odor that occurred
>> > and
>> > I got a thorough teasing by some non-bread bakers.
>> >
>> > After sitting 30 minutes and smelling the bread, it has no hint of this
>> > odor. I haven't cut it yet, but the outside color is good, and the
>> > crust is
>> > a medium softness. I did take the inside temperature - 205.
>> >
>> > This smell is not similar to a sourdough starter gone astray.
>> > Thanks so much.
>> > Dee
>
> Acetic acid is a by product of bread fermentation. Yeasts throw off
> alcohol, carbon dioxide and acids with acetic acid being the most
> prevalent. Acetic acid levels are highest in breads made with a poolish
> (did you do that) or with natural yeasts (and you did say you weren't
> making sourdough). The longer the fermentation, the higher the levels
> of acids. How long did your dough ferment?
>
> I've noticed when I've had this problem that the smell dissipates by the
> time the bread is cooled and ready to eat.
>
> marcella

Looking back over my notes, I see that the last time I had the vinegar-odor
problem was when I made the bread using 1/2 cup less flour than it called
for (from "Bread" Pan Ordinaire - p. 72.)
2 tsp instant yeast, 1-1/2 cup water, 3-1/2 cup bread flour instead of 3-3/4
cup bread flour, 1-1/2 tsp. salt, but when I shaped it, I gently shaped and
incorporated 'quite a bit' of flour into it. I had no problem with the
recipe rising enough in the first rise; as a matter of fact, it rose faster
than I wanted, and I punched it down to let it rise again to double. It had
no trouble rising (45 minutes) while I was heating the stone. I did not
slash the bread.

I later made this same recipe beginning with 3-3/4 cup bread flour and it
did not have this vinegar smell. As I recall even though I did not slash
the first vinegary-smelling bread, I did slash this second bread. I usually
do not use 2 tsp. for this amount of bread flour, so my thoughts at the time
were that I would reduce the yeast to 1-1/2 tsp., as I usually use for this
amount of bread flour. I did not reduce the amount in the second bread.

In the first vinegar-smell baked bread, as you say, the smell did dissipate.
My vinegar-bread wasn't made with a poolish, but the hydration was abt. 82%,
so the whole thing was poolish material!

Any comments always appreciated,
Dee