So everything I have ever seen/eaten that is called "cornbread"
seems more like "cake". It has a "softer" texture and is less
dense than what I would call "bread". Also virtually all the
recepies I have seen for cornbread use eggs which I'd like
to eliminate. Is there such a thing as something more like a
full-bodied whole-grain BREAD using corn?

Somewhat related...
>25 years ago when I lived in Loma Linda, the University
market had an in-store bakery which offered ~30 different
kinds of bread. My lifetime favorite was something they
called "Golden Indian Bread' which was a whole-wheat
(but not whole-grain, AFAIK) bread with a large and
noticable corn-meal proportion. A couple slices of that,
toasted with butter was a heavenly treat and unequalled
in modern times. They actually made it from a pre-
packaged "mix" that came in 50-lb brown paper sacks.
Dunno whether it was just the combination of grains, or
if it included more of the ingredients of the bread?
Recent Google searches have revealed nothing.

"Richard Crowley" > wrote in message
...
> So everything I have ever seen/eaten that is called "cornbread"
> seems more like "cake". It has a "softer" texture and is less
> dense than what I would call "bread". Also virtually all the
> recepies I have seen for cornbread use eggs which I'd like
> to eliminate. Is there such a thing as something more like a
> full-bodied whole-grain BREAD using corn?
>

Corn bread is a quick bread just like other cake-like quick breads. Think
banana bread, zucchini bread, etc. Northerners tend to add a lot of sugar
to their cornbread and southerners do not. Northerners tend to use a
combination of cornmeal and flour and southerners tend to use all cornmeal.
Quick breads are leavened with chemicals, AKA, baking powder. Yeast-raised
breads are not cake-like because they require the tough network of gluten to
contain the CO2 produced by the yeast. It sounds like you want a
yeast-raised bread that contains corn meal.

There is no reason you can't add some corn meal to your favorite yeast bread
recipe. Here is a link to a recipe that I found
http://www.thatsmyhome.com/bakery/special/cornmeal.htm

The recipe is essentially a Victorian milk bread recipe with cornmeal added.
In fact, it is the recipe that I use for basic white bread and rolls. My
recipe does not use eggs like the one I referenced. You can follow that
recipe and leave out the eggs. You may need to increase the water a bit to
compensate for the lost moisture contributed by the eggs. I often
substitute up to a cup of oats or whole wheat flour in this recipe.

"Vox Humana" wrote ...
> Yeast-raised
> breads are not cake-like because they require the tough
> network of gluten to contain the CO2 produced by the
> yeast.

I apologize that I escaped higher-education studying only
physics (to the exclusion of both inorganic and organic
chemistry :-( But it sounds like you are saying that because
corn doesn't have the same properties as wheat (gluten,
etc.) you can't make the same kind of product with corn
meal as you do with wheat flour?

I don't suppose that "Wonder Bread" actually qualifies
as "bread"? :-) As a child, my parents explained that
the name is short for "It's a Wonder they can call it Bread"

Thank you for the recipe. Can you speculate how it would
perform with whole-grain flour? And/or with a different
proportion of wheat flour vs. corn meal?

"Richard Crowley" > wrote in message
...
> "Vox Humana" wrote ...
> > Yeast-raised
> > breads are not cake-like because they require the tough
> > network of gluten to contain the CO2 produced by the
> > yeast.
>
> I apologize that I escaped higher-education studying only
> physics (to the exclusion of both inorganic and organic
> chemistry :-( But it sounds like you are saying that because
> corn doesn't have the same properties as wheat (gluten,
> etc.) you can't make the same kind of product with corn
> meal as you do with wheat flour?
>
> I don't suppose that "Wonder Bread" actually qualifies
> as "bread"? :-) As a child, my parents explained that
> the name is short for "It's a Wonder they can call it Bread"
>
> Thank you for the recipe. Can you speculate how it would
> perform with whole-grain flour? And/or with a different
> proportion of wheat flour vs. corn meal?

You can not make yeast-raised bread from 100% cornmeal. Cornmeal has no
gluten and will not rise from fermentation. You would end up with a brick.

Wonder Bread is bread. It may not be your idea of good food, but it is a
yeast raised bread by any measure.

I would not use more than 50% whole wheat flour. Whole wheat flour has less
gluten than white flour. Although people will disagree, I find that bread
made with 100% whole wheat flour is heavy, dense, brick-like, and has an
unpleasant texture. In addition, the sharp particles of the wheat hull in
WW flour disrupts the gluten network, reducing the effectiveness of the
already reduced gluten. I suspect that cornmeal would do the same. I would
start using one cup of WW flour OR oats OR corn meal. If that works,
increase the amount to two cups. At some point you find the ratio that you
like. If the bread becomes too heavy, you can try adding some wheat gluten
which can usually be found in the baking isle of the supermarket or online.

Thank you very much, Vox.

Vox Humana wrote:
> "Richard Crowley" > wrote

>>I apologize that I escaped higher-education studying only
>>physics (to the exclusion of both inorganic and organic
>>chemistry :-( But it sounds like you are saying that because
>>corn doesn't have the same properties as wheat (gluten,
>>etc.) you can't make the same kind of product with corn
>>meal as you do with wheat flour?
>>
>>I don't suppose that "Wonder Bread" actually qualifies
>>as "bread"? :-) As a child, my parents explained that
>>the name is short for "It's a Wonder they can call it Bread"
>>
> Wonder Bread is bread. It may not be your idea of good food, but it is a
> yeast raised bread by any measure.
>

I use a similar argument about domestic beers...
Bud (even Lite!) *is* beer. It is well made, consistent, with a great
deal of quality control and science behind it. It's a very good example
of a style that I just don't like, myself.

Dave

"Dave Bell" > wrote in message
. com...
> Vox Humana wrote:
> > "Richard Crowley" > wrote
>
> >>I apologize that I escaped higher-education studying only
> >>physics (to the exclusion of both inorganic and organic
> >>chemistry :-( But it sounds like you are saying that because
> >>corn doesn't have the same properties as wheat (gluten,
> >>etc.) you can't make the same kind of product with corn
> >>meal as you do with wheat flour?
> >>
> >>I don't suppose that "Wonder Bread" actually qualifies
> >>as "bread"? :-) As a child, my parents explained that
> >>the name is short for "It's a Wonder they can call it Bread"
> >>
> > Wonder Bread is bread. It may not be your idea of good food, but it is
a
> > yeast raised bread by any measure.
> >
>
> I use a similar argument about domestic beers...
> Bud (even Lite!) *is* beer. It is well made, consistent, with a great
> deal of quality control and science behind it. It's a very good example
> of a style that I just don't like, myself.

I was watching a program on TV recently that discussed the history of Wonder
Bread. I didn't realize that was the first nationally distributed bread.
There was a Wonder Bread bakery near the campus where I went to school. I
can remember the aroma of bread wafting over the neighborhood.

Vox Humana wrote:
> Quick breads are leavened with chemicals, AKA, baking powder. Yeast-raised
> breads are not cake-like because they require the tough network of gluten to
> contain the CO2 produced by the yeast. It sounds like you want a
> yeast-raised bread that contains corn meal.

I think what he wants is something with more corn meal and less cake
flour -- or at least that's what I've had to fight in cornbread recipes.

On Sun, 27 Nov 2005 09:07:21 -0800, "Richard Crowley"
> wrote:

>So everything I have ever seen/eaten that is called "cornbread"
>seems more like "cake". It has a "softer" texture and is less
>dense than what I would call "bread". Also virtually all the
>recepies I have seen for cornbread use eggs which I'd like
>to eliminate. Is there such a thing as something more like a
>full-bodied whole-grain BREAD using corn?

Howdy,

I have no idea if this is the sort of thing you are looking
for, but...

Years ago, in the Farm Journal, I found a recipe for
something called North-South Corn Bread.

The piece explained that the tradition for corn bread in the
North of the US was for an unsweetened bread-like approach
while that of the Southern section of the US was for a
sweet, cake-like product.

The recipe was to be "somewhere in between" the two
approaches.

I suspect that I could dig it out if you would like to know
more...

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

Richard Crowley wrote:
> So everything I have ever seen/eaten that is called "cornbread"
> seems more like "cake". It has a "softer" texture and is less
> dense than what I would call "bread". Also virtually all the
> recepies I have seen for cornbread use eggs which I'd like
> to eliminate. Is there such a thing as something more like a
> full-bodied whole-grain BREAD using corn?

I'm with you on the corn breads that are more like cornbread-flavored
cake. Try this one, from a 1940s cookbook, that I have used for years:

2 eggs, slightly beaten
1-1/2 cups milk
1/4 cup melted shortening
1-1/2 cups yellow corn meal
3/4 cup sifted flour
1 teaspoon salt
1 tablespoon sugar
2-1/2 teaspoons baking powder

Beat eggs, add milk and shortening. Sift dry ingredients together, add
to liquid ingredients and beat well. Pour into greased shallow pan (My
notes: 1: a cast iron pan works wonderfully, but turn the heat down 25
degrees, and 2: You have about the volume of an 8-inch-square pan or a
9-inch round pan) and bake at 400 degrees for 20-25 minutes or until it
shrinks from the sides of the pan.

MELINDA

is your recipe a bread like cornbread?
what's the difference if you baked it in an iron pan vs in the oven?

fawn wrote:
> MELINDA
>
> is your recipe a bread like cornbread?
> what's the difference if you baked it in an iron pan vs in the oven?

Yes, it's a crumbly quick bread and not a cake.

When I say to bake it in a cast iron pan, I mean to bake it, not cook it
on top of the stove -- you grease the cast iron pan, pour the batter in,
and put the cast iron pan in the preheated oven. It makes the outside
crust have a better texture, and it cooks a little quicker.

If the texture of that recipe makes it too dry for you, adjust the flour
and cornmeal proportions. The more cornmeal, the drier it will be.

On Mon 05 Dec 2005 12:21:21a, Thus Spake Zarathustra, or was it Melinda
Meahan - take out TRASH to send?

> fawn wrote:
>> MELINDA
>>
>> is your recipe a bread like cornbread?
>> what's the difference if you baked it in an iron pan vs in the oven?
>
> Yes, it's a crumbly quick bread and not a cake.
>
> When I say to bake it in a cast iron pan, I mean to bake it, not cook it
> on top of the stove -- you grease the cast iron pan, pour the batter in,
> and put the cast iron pan in the preheated oven. It makes the outside
> crust have a better texture, and it cooks a little quicker.
>
> If the texture of that recipe makes it too dry for you, adjust the flour
> and cornmeal proportions. The more cornmeal, the drier it will be.
>

Stoneground cornmeal and buttermilk make a more moist and less crumbly
cornbread than does ordinary cornmeal and whole milk. I never add flour
and still have a very moist cornbread. Also, the amount of fat in the
recipe helps determine the texture of the crumb. I use at least 1/3 cup
for a recipe containing 2 cups cornmeal.

--
Wayne Boatwright *¿*
_____________________________________________

A chicken in every pot is a *LOT* of chicken!

Richard Crowley wrote:

> kinds of bread. My lifetime favorite was something they
> called "Golden Indian Bread' which was a whole-wheat
> (but not whole-grain, AFAIK) bread with a large and noticable corn-meal
> proportion. A couple slices of that,
> toasted with butter was a heavenly treat and unequalled in modern
> times.

I bet it's similar to squaw bread or third bread, which also has rye in
it, and I'm with you on loving it. Don't have a recipe at hand for it,
but I'm sure there are lots of squaw bread recipes on the internet.

Hello Richard;

....
> kinds of bread. My lifetime favorite was something they
> called "Golden Indian Bread' which was a whole-wheat
> (but not whole-grain, AFAIK) bread with a large and noticable corn-meal
> proportion. A couple slices of that,
Can you describe this bread a bit more? You know, color, size, texture,
shape, flavor, etc...?

It sound interesting, and I'd like to learn more about it...

Dusty
....

"Dusty Bleher" wrote ...
> Hello Richard;
>
> ...
>> kinds of bread. My lifetime favorite was something they
>> called "Golden Indian Bread' which was a whole-wheat
>> (but not whole-grain, AFAIK) bread with a large and noticable
>> corn-meal proportion. A couple slices of that,
> Can you describe this bread a bit more? You know, color, size,
> texture, shape, flavor, etc...?
>
> It sound interesting, and I'd like to learn more about it...

It was a very uniform-shape/size loaf with a "nominal"
crust and "nominal"-looking interior texture/color. It
was essentially indistinguishable from any other
bakery-made wheat bread. The "mouth-feel" was a bit
on the coarse side of average. There was nothing really
remarkable-looking about the bread. But the flavor had
a noticeable element of cornmeal, I don't recall if you
could actually see any yellow cornmeal by looking at
the slices.

I once saw a pallet stacked with several bags of "mix".
They were 50lb brown kraft paper bags with dark green
printing on them. I wish I could remember the name of
the vendor, but that bakery had several of their varieties
that came from similar "mixes" from the same source.
The bakery is long out of business, and the market itself
may also be out of business (clientele stolen away by a
big chrome/glass chain supermarket a few miles away).

"nominal" is a great word made popular by the scientists
and engineers at NASA in the 1970-80s.

And I got "mouth-feel" from International Fragrances &
Flavors (www.iff.com)

"Richard Crowley" > wrote in message
...
....
>> Can you describe this bread a bit more? You know, color, size, texture,
>> shape, flavor, etc...?
>>
>> It sound interesting, and I'd like to learn more about it...
>
> It was a very uniform-shape/size loaf with a "nominal"
> crust and "nominal"-looking interior texture/color. It
> was essentially indistinguishable from any other
> bakery-made wheat bread. The "mouth-feel" was a bit
So, it was a bread that had gluten strands that held bubbles? As opposed to
a baking powder bread that's just sort of puffy w/o really noticeable holes?

> on the coarse side of average. There was nothing really
> remarkable-looking about the bread. But the flavor had
> a noticeable element of cornmeal, I don't recall if you
> could actually see any yellow cornmeal by looking at
> the slices.

I was hoping to get enough of a description that I could search for such a
recipe. But what I have is still not enough to go on...

....
> "nominal" is a great word made popular by the scientists
> and engineers at NASA in the 1970-80s.
Hey now! I wuz one of those "... scientists and engineers at NASA ..."
around that time and probably contributed to the over-utilization of that
word...(:-o)!

If you find or hear of any more, please drop me a note and let me know. It
sounds interesting, so I wanna find and work out that recipe...


L9r,
Dusty
....