Sorry if these are dumb questions...

1. Is it ok to leave a cake that is decorated with an icing made from
butter and cream cheese, powdered sugar and water (or milk) out on the
counter overnight, or should it be refridgerated? If I need to keep it
in the fridge, will the colors of different icing run or bleed into
each other? Any precautions to take?

2. My Spice Islands brand "pure vanilla extract" looks cloudy. I
tasted it and mainly taste alcohol - should I just toss it and start
anew? Is there a way to use real vanilla bean to flavor the icing
(above)?

TIA,
-L.

"-L." > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Sorry if these are dumb questions...
>
> 1. Is it ok to leave a cake that is decorated with an icing made from
> butter and cream cheese, powdered sugar and water (or milk) out on the
> counter overnight, or should it be refridgerated? If I need to keep it
> in the fridge, will the colors of different icing run or bleed into
> each other? Any precautions to take?
>
> 2. My Spice Islands brand "pure vanilla extract" looks cloudy. I
> tasted it and mainly taste alcohol - should I just toss it and start
> anew? Is there a way to use real vanilla bean to flavor the icing
> (above)?


Ideally the cream cheese frosting should be refrigerated. It is unlikely
that the colors will run more in the refrigerator than if left at room
temperature. That said, there is so much sugar in the frosting that it is
unlikely that it will spoil if left out over night.

When in doubt it is always best to discard food products. But, since there
is so much alcohol in vanilla extract, it is unlikely to make you sick. One
way to flavor the frosting would be to use vanilla powder. I don't know of
any way to flavor it with the bean except to put a whole bean in the sugar
and let it sit for an extended time.

Vox Humana wrote:
>
> Ideally the cream cheese frosting should be refrigerated. It is unlikely
> that the colors will run more in the refrigerator than if left at room
> temperature. That said, there is so much sugar in the frosting that it is
> unlikely that it will spoil if left out over night.
>
> When in doubt it is always best to discard food products. But, since there
> is so much alcohol in vanilla extract, it is unlikely to make you sick. One
> way to flavor the frosting would be to use vanilla powder. I don't know of
> any way to flavor it with the bean except to put a whole bean in the sugar
> and let it sit for an extended time.

Thanks - will take everything under advisement.
-L.

at Thu, 12 Jan 2006 09:33:00 GMT in <1137058380.479607.320550
@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, (-L.) wrote :

>Sorry if these are dumb questions...
>
>1. Is it ok to leave a cake that is decorated with an icing made from
>butter and cream cheese, powdered sugar and water (or milk) out on the
>counter overnight, or should it be refridgerated? If I need to keep it
>in the fridge, will the colors of different icing run or bleed into
>each other? Any precautions to take?

As Vox said, best to refrigerate, although left out on the counter it
shouldn't immediately spoil. However, one thing I thought I would add is
that if the cake is to be transported a fair distance, especially by car,
you definitely should refrigerate because the icing will soften if left out
and could sag or run during transit if unchilled. Furthermore, soft icing
has a notorious habit of sticking to boxes, shirts, knives, anything that
gets in contact with it.

Very minor terminological point: if the covering is fairly soft and fluffy,
then technically it should be called a "frosting", where an "icing" would
be a harder, shell-like covering.

>2. My Spice Islands brand "pure vanilla extract" looks cloudy. I
>tasted it and mainly taste alcohol - should I just toss it and start
>anew? Is there a way to use real vanilla bean to flavor the icing
>(above)?

Absolutely. Using the milk base, what you do is to scald the milk, split
the vanilla bean and scrape into the milk, then steep both scrapings and
bean in the milk for about 10 minutes or so - long enough for all the
little seeds to become totally separate instead of clumping. Then, chill
the mix. When chilled, fish out the bean and scrape off clinging milk and
bits back into the milk, and discard the bean. Then use the milk as usual.
Your icing will end up with inviting black spots in it indicating the use
of real vanilla.

If you have to have a pure white icing (e.g. for a wedding cake), then
steep the bean for longer - about 30 minutes, and at the point where you're
discarding the bean, run the mixture through a fine cheesecloth (coarse
won't do) or very fine sieve. This should get rid of the seeds, if you
absolutely must not have them in there.

--
Alex Rast

(remove d., .7, not, and .NOSPAM to reply)

(-L.)WROTE:
Sorry if these are dumb questions...
1. Is it ok to leave a cake that is decorated with an icing made from
butter and cream cheese, powdered sugar and water (or milk) out on the
counter overnight, or should it be refridgerated? If I need to keep it
in the fridge, will the colors of different icing run or bleed into each
other? Any precautions to take?
2. My Spice Islands brand "pure vanilla extract" looks cloudy. I tasted
it and mainly taste alcohol - should I just toss it and start anew? Is
there a way to use real vanilla bean to flavor the icing (above)?
TIA,------------------------------------------------
My Response: No matter how much I get flamed by this reply & I do get
flamed I go by what an retired food inspector through our local board of
health taught us in the food safety & handling course I took at a top
rated community college in culinary.
ANY food item with whole milk , butter,& eggs are to be stored in the
fridge PERIOD.
If any thing this gives me peace of mind & steers me away from these
products in grocery stores with listed ingredients stored on open non
refrigerated shelves.

I concur......HACCP is always in the mind of a competent food
processor...
Indeed past experience confirm that you can ge the dairy rich
decorated cake and when done just allowing it to stand in ambient
overnight....but food safety rules must prevail specially if we are
producing food items for other peoples consumption.

Food items that have a a high water activity should be kept under
refrigeration.

chembake wrote:

> I concur......HACCP is always in the mind of a competent food
> processor...

Agreed, sorta. A bit too extreme for most baked goods.

> Indeed past experience confirm that you can ge the dairy rich
> decorated cake and when done just allowing it to stand in ambient
> overnight...

I don't understand this.

> but food safety rules must prevail specially if we are
> producing food items for other peoples consumption.

Absolutely. But they must be applied knowledgeably.

> Food items that have a high water activity should be kept under
> refrigeration.

Too sweeping a statement. Pickles are a good example of foods with high
water activity that can safely be stored at room temp. The combinations
of pH, water activity, preservatives and processing are the determinants.

Pastorio

Alex Rast wrote:
>
> As Vox said, best to refrigerate, although left out on the counter it
> shouldn't immediately spoil. However, one thing I thought I would add is
> that if the cake is to be transported a fair distance, especially by car,
> you definitely should refrigerate because the icing will soften if left out
> and could sag or run during transit if unchilled. Furthermore, soft icing
> has a notorious habit of sticking to boxes, shirts, knives, anything that
> gets in contact with it.
>
> Very minor terminological point: if the covering is fairly soft and fluffy,
> then technically it should be called a "frosting", where an "icing" would
> be a harder, shell-like covering.

LOL...my Midwestern upbringing is coming out. My Mom always called it
icing no matter what it was. Thanks for the clarification.

>
> >2. My Spice Islands brand "pure vanilla extract" looks cloudy. I
> >tasted it and mainly taste alcohol - should I just toss it and start
> >anew? Is there a way to use real vanilla bean to flavor the icing
> >(above)?
>
> Absolutely. Using the milk base, what you do is to scald the milk, split
> the vanilla bean and scrape into the milk, then steep both scrapings and
> bean in the milk for about 10 minutes or so - long enough for all the
> little seeds to become totally separate instead of clumping. Then, chill
> the mix. When chilled, fish out the bean and scrape off clinging milk and
> bits back into the milk, and discard the bean. Then use the milk as usual.
> Your icing will end up with inviting black spots in it indicating the use
> of real vanilla.
>
> If you have to have a pure white icing (e.g. for a wedding cake), then
> steep the bean for longer - about 30 minutes, and at the point where you're
> discarding the bean, run the mixture through a fine cheesecloth (coarse
> won't do) or very fine sieve. This should get rid of the seeds, if you
> absolutely must not have them in there.

Thanks for the info. I will file it away for later use. This frosting
will be colored so flecks aren't an issue.

Thanks to all who replied. I think I willl stick the cake in the
fridge overnight and then take it out in the AM. The party is at noon,
and I am making the cake the night before.

-L.

I would add following as much as possible HACCP even when you don't
have the health dept looking at you. Although I seem to have been
blessed with an iron stomach many are not. At particular risk are folks
with compromised immune systems. It has disappeared from the news but
HIV is very much continuing to spread and a large number of people have
hepititis C. I have a friend with Lupus and another who had an organ
transplant and several who are on chemo. Many times these conditions
are unknow to others so it's helpful to me to try to assume someone in
a group I'm providing food for may have a compromised immune system and
act accordingly.
-Marylouise

-L. wrote:

> 1. Is it ok to leave a cake that is decorated with an icing made from
> butter and cream cheese, powdered sugar and water (or milk) out on the
> counter overnight, or should it be refridgerated?

> Indeed past experience confirm that you can ge the dairy rich
> decorated cake and when done just allowing it to stand in ambient
> overnight...


..>I don't understand this
That is reasonable
You had never been a baker but presumably just academician
......therrefore you never had first hand experience in cases where
occasional violations of HACCP rules works...

>Pickles are a good example of foods with high
..>water activity that can safely be stored at room temp. The
combinations
..>of pH, water activity, preservatives and processing are the
determinants.

Pickes?....bakers and pastry cooks don't deal with such items.... .
Normally bakers don't add any preservatives in cake icings nor have to
use most of the time high processing temperatures ..( for example in
boiled icings)
Its common for these tradesmen to make icings at room temperatures...
In addition to that pH is not an issue with cake frosting materials
either


...

chembake wrote:

>> Indeed past experience confirm that you can ge the dairy rich
>> decorated cake and when done just allowing it to stand in
>> ambient overnight...
>
>>I don't understand this

> That is reasonable You had never been a baker but presumably just
> academician

I'm a chef with 30 years of experience, including pastry. I
meant I didn't understand the sentence.

> .....therrefore you never had first hand experience in cases where
> occasional violations of HACCP rules works...

I had my first restaurant job in the early 1950's when I was in grammar
school. I started my first restaurant in 1974 and have owned several
others since; I've run country club and resort operations, and consulted
about all phases of foodservice. I'm also a published food writer.

>> Pickles are a good example of foods with high water activity that
>> can safely be stored at room temp. The combinations of pH, water
>> activity, preservatives and processing are the determinants.
>
> Pickes?....bakers and pastry cooks don't deal with such items.... .

Understood. But for room temp storage, it's not just water activity that
matters, even for pastry. Cheeses and eggs provide opportunity for
bacterial and mold growths, for example.

Fruit curd fillings generally have a reasonably low water activity and
low pH, but molds can grow on them rather quickly.

> Normally bakers don't add any preservatives in cake icings nor have
> to use most of the time high processing temperatures..(for example
> in boiled icings) Its common for these tradesmen to make icings at
> room temperatures... In addition to that pH is not an issue with cake
> frosting materials either

I agree with all these clarifications, but the simple rule of just being
concerned with water activity is misleading. Filled breads and pastries
use other foods that can support both spoilage and pathogenic bacteria
and molds. I'm saying that we should be careful with all of them.

Pastorio

I'm a chef with 30 years of experience, including pastry. I
meant I didn't understand the sentence.
>
>

Well..
.. I worked in the food industry for decades and I know how chef's
think....in my observation they are good cooks and know how to manage
the kitchen but not competent enough to think ..in scientific fashion
..and sometimes forget to implement food safety procedures ..in their
day to day chores..
Just think about this, after years of training, experience and even
schooling, occasionally food poisoning still occurs...in their
kitchen...


>I had my first restaurant job in the early 1950's when I was in grammar
>school. I started my first restaurant in 1974 and have owned several
>others since; I've run country club and resort operations, and consulted
>about all phases of foodservice. I'm also a published food writer.

So with all that experience ...do you think that you are already
qualified to talk about HACCP?
Besides
What does being a food writer have to do with food safety rules...?
Food journalists who are also chefs a....IMO (and even from
observation in some certain chefs who become writers ) .usually focus
on English composition and grammar than the food safety in their
kitchens...
During your formative yearsin the kitchen I doubt if such NASA derived
food safety rules did ever came to the minds of your mentors....and if
you absorbed the habits of your traditional teachers ...its unlikely
that you will change instantly due to changing trends...in food
processing rules.. I had met and seen so many chefs in my career ....an
its often that in the old and highly experience chefs ,old habits
are difficult to change specially for high ranking chefs that have
egos as huge as a blimp.<grin>..


>> Pickles are a good example of foods with high water activity that
>> can safely be stored at room temp. The combinations of pH, water
>> activity, preservatives and processing are the determinants.

> Pickes?....bakers and pastry cooks don't deal with such items.... .

>Understood. But for room temp storage, it's not just water activity that
>matters, even for pastry.

Pastry?....yes they had lower moisture content and so have lower
water activity values compared to cakes and bread due to the high
amount of fat but they are still susceptible to spoilage..for example
....the .pastry casing is for meat pie but even when baked it does
not prevent it from getting spoiled ...Meat filling juices may seep
into the casings cracks and crevices increasing the moisture content
and hence the water activity....

> Cheeses and eggs provide opportunity for
>bacterial and mold growths, for example.
>
Cheese and eggs used in general cookery usually results in moderate to
high water activity in the finished products , aside from the fact that
they provide an active culture media for microbes .... because of that
pathogens can live and multiply in them.......compromising food safety
of the finished food item.

>Fruit curd fillings generally have a reasonably low water activity and
>low pH, but molds can grow on them rather quickly.

Well molds can exist with slightly lower water activity than bacteria
and so is the fruit curd and fillings which have moderate Aw( water
activity) values which are highly subject to mold and yeast
fermentation ( which incidentally like to live in moderate water
activity).
Bacteria lives and multiplies in higher water activity values ...but
when bacteria weakens or dies due to the lowering of water
activity...the molds,fungi and yeasts takes its place....actively. .

> Normally bakers don't add any preservatives in cake icings nor have
> to use most of the time high processing temperatures..(for example
> in boiled icings) Its common for these tradesmen to make icings at
> room temperatures... In addition to that pH is not an issue with cake
> frosting materials either


>I agree with all these clarifications, but the simple rule of just being
>concerned with water activity is misleading.

It only means one thing. IMO... I am sorry to say that you don't have
a deep understanding with water activity.,and its importance in food
processing.
..Anyway .Its not surprising as its pretty common with many highly
qualified chefs...and most of them scoffed at them including some
cookery school instructors <grin>.who don't follow what they preach
to their cookery students in the culinary school.
....just a few years ago....I met a well known chef who scoffed at
water activity and related terminology and became complacent (in the
his cookery methodologies that pertain to food safety) in his kitchen
Incidentally his HACCP program was found to be faulty. by the food
safety auditor /inspector and was never modified after continuous
warning... from other inspectors who visited his kitchen in the past.
....He scornfully told the inspector...
I had been running this restaurant for more than three decades and
still I never did have any serious food related incident that led my
restaurants closure...
Further
He sneered at them and said.....Stick your water activity (and
stringent food safety rules ) into your arse !
A few months later his kitchen and restaurant were shut down due to
a large number of people who were hospitalized from salmonella
poisoning...from contaminated food eaten during a banquet in his
restaurant......

I had seen a number of restaurant in many places that succumb to this
kind of complacency with disastrous results to their restaurants, and
their reputation.

>Filled breads and pastries use other foods that can support both spoilage and pathogenic >bacteria and molds. I'm saying that we should be careful with all of them.

Breads in themselves have high water activity..in the vicinity of
0.90's .so it can still be attacked by bacteria such as the bacillus
subtilis/mesentericus which causes rope and that is already considered
as spoilage....
Fillings in bread are sensitive to spoilage, it can be meat and dairy
based ; and both have moderate to high water activity as the low to
moderate amount of sugar but low salt and the usual absence of
humectants( which binds water) does not decrease water activity much
and therefore don't prevent osmophilic bacteria ,molds and yeast
from attacking it causing it to spoil....Once fermentation sets in the
water activity values can increase due to the breakdown of food
structure increasing the water content of the spoiled food leading to
other microbes ( including pathogen to attack it)..This chain reaction
can led to a food hazards in many cases and people that are highly
sensitive can be the first to fall ill.
Even this so called jam fillings which can have water activity values
IIRC of 0.60-0.70 is still not immune to these hardy organism....And
certain people that are allergic to certain mold toxins are the first
to succumb to it.
Even your pickles with higher water activity can still be attacked by
halophilic ( salt loving ) bacteria ....However as of now I have not
heard of any body that is allergic to these salt loving bacteria ( or I
may not be aware of it happening elsewhere ) .The fermentation by
products can make food unpalatable....and a spoiled pickle can then
taste awful...
Many kitchen personnels may find these water activityAw, equilibrium
relative humidity (ERH ) terminology as too academic ..and useless in
practical situation but they are wrong!
...

I had been in the food processing industry for decades and although in
baking,patisserie and confectionery are my field....I still exercise
care when preparing food for institutions and have to remind myself
often....water activity is ubiquitous in the food industry

Sorry Bob ...we may differ in our opinions regarding the relevance of
water activity in the general food processing...

chembake wrote:

> I'm a chef with 30 years of experience, including pastry. I meant I
> didn't understand the sentence.
>
> Well.. . I worked in the food industry for decades and I know how
> chef's think....in my observation they are good cooks and know how to
> manage the kitchen but not competent enough to think ..in scientific
> fashion

My undergraduate degree is in English with a biological sciences minor.
I had originally started university as a pre-medical student only to
discover after a few years that while I liked and was a very good
student of sciences, moving into medicine proved to be an area that I
decided I didn't like. My background in science is good.

> .and sometimes forget to implement food safety procedures ..in their
> day to day chores.. Just think about this, after years of training,
> experience and even schooling, occasionally food poisoning still
> occurs...in their kitchen...

You have no idea how I or my people worked. You have no idea about
anything of my professional experience. Please save your insults.

>> I had my first restaurant job in the early 1950's when I was in
>> grammar school. I started my first restaurant in 1974 and have
>> owned several others since; I've run country club and resort
>> operations, and consulted about all phases of foodservice. I'm also
>> a published food writer.
>
> So with all that experience ...do you think that you are already
> qualified to talk about HACCP?

Yes. I do. I have routinely dealt with local, state and federal
inspection agencies and conformed to their standards. I and all my
employees had to go through the courses offered by all health
departments for food service operations. I've taken the Better
Processing course administered by the Food and Drug Administration and
have had my food manufacturing operations subject to their inspections.

> Besides What does being a food writer have to do with food safety
> rules...?

It has only this: in order to be considered a reliable source by the
publications I've written for, the information must be good and the
sources must be checkable. You should read my article about "Food
Additives" in the Oxford University Press Encyclopedia of American food
and Drink. It's partly about food safety.

> Food journalists who are also chefs a....IMO (and even from
> observation in some certain chefs who become writers) usually focus
> on English composition and grammar than the food safety in their
> kitchens...

Please stop trying to diminish me and my background. I don't really care
what you think of chefs and writers. That's your opinion and appears
only to be negative in an attempt to make yourself seem more
knowledgeable. A scientist waits for evidence.

> During your formative yearsin the kitchen I doubt if such NASA
> derived food safety rules did ever came to the minds of your
> mentors....and if you absorbed the habits of your traditional
> teachers ...its unlikely that you will change instantly due to
> changing trends...in food processing rules.. I had met and seen so
> many chefs in my career ....an its often that in the old and highly
> experience chefs ,old habits are difficult to change specially
> for high ranking chefs that have egos as huge as a blimp.<grin>..

What are your opinions about bakers with so little confidence in
themselves that they need to try to insult others by innuendo?

>>> Pickles are a good example of foods with high water activity that
>>> can safely be stored at room temp. The combinations of pH, water
>>> activity, preservatives and processing are the determinants.
>
>> Pickes?....bakers and pastry cooks don't deal with such items.... .
>
>> Understood. But for room temp storage, it's not just water activity
>> that matters, even for pastry.
>
> Pastry?....yes they had lower moisture content and so have lower
> water activity values compared to cakes and bread due to the high
> amount of fat but they are still susceptible to spoilage..for example
> ...the .pastry casing is for meat pie but even when baked it does
> not prevent it from getting spoiled ...Meat filling juices may seep
> into the casings cracks and crevices increasing the moisture
> content and hence the water activity....
>
>
>> Cheeses and eggs provide opportunity for bacterial and mold
>> growths, for example.
>>
> Cheese and eggs used in general cookery usually results in moderate
> to high water activity in the finished products , aside from the fact
> that they provide an active culture media for microbes .... because
> of that pathogens can live and multiply in them.... compromising
> food safety of the finished food item.

Pastries filled with cheeses and custards are what I was referring to.
Moderate water activity and good base for bacterial action and molding
anyway.

>> Fruit curd fillings generally have a reasonably low water activity
>> and low pH, but molds can grow on them rather quickly.
>
> Well molds can exist with slightly lower water activity than
> bacteria and so is the fruit curd and fillings which have moderate
> Aw( water activity) values which are highly subject to mold and
> yeast fermentation ( which incidentally like to live in moderate
> water activity). Bacteria lives and multiplies in higher water
> activity values ...but when bacteria weakens or dies due to the
> lowering of water activity...the molds,fungi and yeasts takes its
> place....actively. .
>
>> Normally bakers don't add any preservatives in cake icings nor have
>> to use most of the time high processing temperatures..(for example
>> in boiled icings) Its common for these tradesmen to make icings at
>> room temperatures... In addition to that pH is not an issue with
>> cake frosting materials either
>
>> I agree with all these clarifications, but the simple rule of just
>> being concerned with water activity is misleading.
>
> It only means one thing. IMO... I am sorry to say that you don't have
> a deep understanding with water activity, and its importance in food
> processing.

I own a commercial food processing business operated with a very careful
and professional system. We make infused and flavored oils, seasoned and
infused vinegars, fruit juice curds, chocolates, breads and pastries
(filled and unfilled), hot sauces, brine mixes and seasonal products.
I've consulted with many food scientists in the course of formulating
these products and have gained a good understanding of what the issues
are for all of them.

> .Anyway .Its not surprising as its pretty common with many highly
> qualified chefs...and most of them scoffed at them including some
> cookery school instructors <grin>.who don't follow what they preach
> to their cookery students in the culinary school. ...just a few
> years ago....I met a well known chef who scoffed at water activity
> and related terminology and became complacent (in the his cookery
> methodologies that pertain to food safety) in his kitchen
> Incidentally his HACCP program was found to be faulty. by the food
> safety auditor /inspector and was never modified after continuous
> warning... from other inspectors who visited his kitchen in the
> past. ...He scornfully told the inspector... I had been running this
> restaurant for more than three decades and still I never did have
> any serious food related incident that led my restaurants closure...
> Further He sneered at them and said.....Stick your water activity
> (and stringent food safety rules ) into your arse ! A few months
> later his kitchen and restaurant were shut down due to a large
> number of people who were hospitalized from salmonella
> poisoning...from contaminated food eaten during a banquet in his
> restaurant......
>
> I had seen a number of restaurant in many places that succumb to this
> kind of complacency with disastrous results to their restaurants,
> and their reputation.

I'm so happy for you that you are able to feel superior to someone. And
I admire your style of insult.

>> Filled breads and pastries use other foods that can support both
>> spoilage and pathogenic bacteria and molds. I'm saying that we
>> should be careful with all of them.
>
> Breads in themselves have high water activity..in the vicinity of
> 0.90's

Generally around .95

Cakes - .9 to .94
icing - .76 to .79

> so it can still be attacked by bacteria such as the bacillus
> subtilis/mesentericus which causes rope and that is already
> considered as spoilage.... Fillings in bread are sensitive to
> spoilage, it can be meat and dairy based; and both have moderate
> to high water activity as the low to moderate amount of sugar but
> low salt and the usual absence of humectants (which binds water)
> does not decrease water activity much and therefore don't prevent
> osmophilic bacteria, molds and yeast from attacking it causing it
> to spoil....Once fermentation sets in the water activity values can
> increase due to the breakdown of food structure increasing the water
> content of the spoiled food leading to other microbes (including
> pathogen to attack it)..This chain reaction can led to a food hazards
> in many cases and people that are highly sensitive can be the first
> to fall ill. Even this so called jam fillings which can have water
> activity values IIRC of 0.60-0.70

Jams and jellies - .82 to .94

> is still not immune to these hardy
> organism....And certain people that are allergic to certain mold
> toxins are the first to succumb to it. Even your pickles with higher
> water activity can still be attacked by halophilic (salt loving)
> bacteria ....However as of now I have not heard of any body that is
> allergic to these salt loving bacteria (or I may not be aware of it
> happening elsewhere). The fermentation by-products can make food
> unpalatable....and a spoiled pickle can then taste awful... Many
> kitchen personnels may find these water activity Aw, equilibrium
> relative humidity (ERH ) terminology as too academic ..and useless
> in practical situation but they are wrong! ..

I appreciate your offering all this information in support of my
original position that water activity alone isn't the only concern for
food safety. That maintaining food safety requires a more sophisticated
view.

Establishing a system for kitchens that make sure good safety practices
are followed means that the cooks don't really need to understand the
complex biological, chemical and physical conditions. They just need to
know what to do and how to do it in accordance with the appropriate
principles. I want cooks with sympathetic kitchen hands, not academics.

> I had been in the food processing industry for decades and although
> in baking, patisserie and confectionery are my field....I still
> exercise care when preparing food for institutions

Of course. There is no other way.

> and have to remind
> myself often....water activity is ubiquitous in the food industry

Water activity is ubiquitous in human life. But a single factor as
explanation for such complex conditions is not sufficient.

> Sorry Bob ...we may differ in our opinions regarding the relevance of
> water activity in the general food processing...

No, I don't think we do. I understand that water activity is a crucial
issue. But it's not the only issue.

Pastorio

Bob (this one) wrote:
> Water activity is ubiquitous in human life. But a single factor as
> explanation for such complex conditions is not sufficient.
>
> > Sorry Bob ...we may differ in our opinions regarding the relevance of
> > water activity in the general food processing...
>
> No, I don't think we do. I understand that water activity is a crucial
> issue. But it's not the only issue.
>
> Pastorio

I was a molecular biologist for 15 years and have had advanced
coursework in micro, mycology and molecular biology, to name a few. I
have never heard of "water activity" as being a factor to be considered
in whether or not an organism will culture on a particular medium.
Must be a food science term he's hung up on, or something (honestly I
have never encountered the term.) His entire diatribe seems pretty
simplistic and, franky, dumb, to me, as so many factors need to be
considered - pH, available sugars, carbs sources, salt concentration,
light, heat, aeration, etc.

-L.

Bob, Roy (Chembake) often has a lot to offer here in these groups.
He does have a great deal of experience, and his insights from a
biochemical point of view are frequently very helpful.

But, don't get into an argument with him. As I believe Sam Clemens put
it, it is like wrestling with a pig: you get muddy and the pig enjoys it!

Dave

-L. wrote:
> Bob (this one) wrote:
>
>>Water activity is ubiquitous in human life. But a single factor as
>>explanation for such complex conditions is not sufficient.
>>
>>>Sorry Bob ...we may differ in our opinions regarding the relevance of
>>> water activity in the general food processing...
>>
>>No, I don't think we do. I understand that water activity is a crucial
>>issue. But it's not the only issue.
>>
>>Pastorio
>
>
> I was a molecular biologist for 15 years and have had advanced
> coursework in micro, mycology and molecular biology, to name a few. I
> have never heard of "water activity" as being a factor to be considered
> in whether or not an organism will culture on a particular medium.
> Must be a food science term he's hung up on,

It is. It's essentially an index about how much water is available to
colonizing organisms. Not how much water is in the particular food, but
how much of it isn't bound. In food science, the lower the index number
(ranges from 0.0 [no water] to 1.00 [water]), the less water there is
for the metabolic needs of any critters; so reduced viability for
culturing in food products. Points to shelf life and storage
requirements. High water activity and low pH means refrigeration.

"Control of water activity (rather than water content) is very important
in the food industry as low water activity prevents microbial growth
(increasing shelf life), causes large changes in textural
characteristics such as crispness and crunchiness (e.g. the sound
produced by 'crunching' breakfast cereal disappearing above about aw =
0.65) and changes the rate of chemical reactions (increasing hydrophobe
lipophilic reactions but reducing hydrophile aqueous-diffusion-limited
reactions)."
<http://www.lsbu.ac.uk/water/activity.html>

> or something (honestly I
> have never encountered the term.) His entire diatribe seems pretty
> simplistic and, frankly, dumb, to me, as so many factors need to be
> considered - pH, available sugars, carbs sources, salt concentration,
> light, heat, aeration, etc.

Exactly. That's why I said there needs to be more consideration than
merely water activity.

Pastorio

Dave Bell wrote:
> Bob, Roy (Chembake) often has a lot to offer here in these groups.
> He does have a great deal of experience, and his insights from a
> biochemical point of view are frequently very helpful.

I can see that he's devoted a good deal of thought to it.

> But, don't get into an argument with him. As I believe Sam Clemens put
> it, it is like wrestling with a pig: you get muddy and the pig enjoys it!

I have several good recipes for...

Nevermind <LOL>

Thanks.

Pastorio

(Dave*Bell)WROTE:
Bob, Roy (Chembake) often has a lot to offer here in these groups. He
does have a great deal of experience, and his insights from a
biochemical point of view are frequently very helpful.
But, don't get into an argument with him. As I believe Sam Clemens put
it, it is like wrestling with a pig: you get muddy and the pig enjoys
it!
Dave----------------------------------------------- Response: Wouldn't
it be nice if Rose Levy Beranbaum got involved with this NG.

>Must be a food science term he's hung up on, or something (honestly I
>have never encountered the term

Well that is the difference...a molecular biologist don't consider
food to be an important subject to study but the microbes
itself.....<grin>..

>I was a molecular biologist for 15 years and have had advanced
>coursework in micro, mycology and molecular biology, to name a few. I
>have never heard of "water activity" as being a factor to be considered
>in whether or not an organism will culture on a particular medium.

Really ?
During my microbiology course works..in the university days ,.my first
teacher was a molecular biologist..He talks what we consider an
abstruse..language. to the class that he failed to get us interested
in the subject matter as he delve more in theoretical aspect of cell
structure, metabolism, genetic matter and other deeper aspects of cell
biology... without even relating its importance to practical
application....
One of my classmates asked the instructor....what is the importance of
this theoretical cell biology discussion to food processing...we know
already the basics of cell biology and biochemistry and we are not
graduate students ....that we need to tackle your specialized
discussion head on... ...?

There seems to be a gulf that hampers our absorption of the subject
matter.....Can anybody do the lecture to our own level...? ..The
,majority of the class supported the demand therefore .
..The dean relented as he realized his mistake of assigning a
specialist person...therefore organized for another teacher to handle
our microbiology class. The guy that replaced was a food scientist
..(so much the better. We agreed)..He ( the new teacher incidentally
was actually practicing food microbiologist .....Therefore that
eliminated the' gap'..and enabled the class to realize the
importance of such terms for example the water activity in food
processing

>.) His entire diatribe seems pretty
>simplistic and, franky, dumb, to me, as so many factors need to be
>considered - pH, available sugars, carbs sources, salt concentration,
..light, heat, aeration, etc.

LOL!...silly you....
If you consider this dumb ,,,,,its your own fault as you don't grasp
the concept of water activity from the point in food science ....

As science become more specialized....there are common terminologies
that have different meanings or interpretation from the different
disciplines


Now regarding the other parameters that is also considered....but what
is found in the food formulations is the targeted water activity...the
formulation will indicate what are the available carbs, salt
concentration, and other lesser factors that can affect microbial
growth

chembake wrote:
> I'm a chef with 30 years of experience, including pastry. I meant I
> didn't understand the sentence.


>You have no idea how I or my people worked. You have no idea about
>anything of my professional experience. Please save your insults.

Well everybody had its own preconception what a chef is
....unfortunately its always not good...as some of the most popular
jokes are denigrating in nature...
BTW
It is being asked in some circles ...why does the chef wears a toque...

One funny answers are .... to hide his shortness and to look tall to
other people...and also to look smart and respectable even if his
head is full of hot air..!.




> Besides What does being a food writer have to do with food safety
> rules...?


>It has only this: in order to be considered a reliable source by the
>publications I've written for, the information must be good and the
>sources must be checkable. You should read my article about "Food
>Additives" in the Oxford University Press Encyclopedia of American food
>and Drink. It's partly about food safety.

Really....
Previously I read a lot of books about food additives and food safety
but never heard your name.. I am sorry...


>Please stop trying to diminish me and my background. I don't really care
>what you think of chefs and writers. That's your opinion and appears
>only to be negative in an attempt to make yourself seem more
>knowledgeable.

Hmmnn......I still don't consider myself to be that
knowledgeable....nor I want to denigrate your status an English major
that became a food writer or science teacher who became a chef....
we are in the same boat
I am just a chemist that became a baker...then a /patissier / and
lately a confectioner



> During your formative yearsin the kitchen I doubt if such NASA
> derived food safety rules did ever came to the minds of your
> mentors....and if you absorbed the habits of your traditional
> teachers ...its unlikely that you will change instantly due to
> changing trends...in food processing rules.. I had met and seen so
> many chefs in my career ....an its often that in the old and highly
> experience chefs ,old habits are difficult to change specially
> for high ranking chefs that have egos as huge as a blimp.<grin>..


>What are your opinions about bakers with so little confidence in
>themselves that they need to try to insult others by innuendo?

Insult...?
..little confidence....? that is a presumption....
Bakers normally are not as egocentric as chefs..but we banter a
lot....there is no point being serious when we 're just overgrown
kids that want to play with the dough for a living....<grin>



>Pastries filled with cheeses and custards are what I was referring to.
>Moderate water activity and good base for bacterial action and molding
>anyway.

That sounds sensible.



>I own a commercial food processing business operated with a very careful
>and professional system. We make infused and flavored oils, seasoned and
>infused vinegars, fruit juice curds, chocolates, breads and pastries
>(filled and unfilled), hot sauces, brine mixes and seasonal products.
>I've consulted with many food scientists in the course of formulating
>these products and have gained a good understanding of what the issues
>are for all of them.

Its nice to know.....that you are notch higher than an ordinary chef of
any typical restaurant .




>I'm so happy for you that you are able to feel superior to someone. And
>I admire your style of insult.

Bob ...don't take it seriously....
Its sad to say....that Chefs lack sense of humor if compared to the
bakers......<sigh>...

>> Filled breads and pastries use other foods that can support both
>> spoilage and pathogenic bacteria and molds. I'm saying that we
>> should be careful with all of them.

> Breads in themselves have high water activity..in the vicinity of
> 0.90's



>Generally around .95

Thanks for the correction....my record starts at 0.90...as there are
certain breads that have lower water content.( low hydration)...which
is common in Asia...and also contains more of sugar in it.



> so it can still be attacked by bacteria such as the bacillus
> subtilis/mesentericus which causes rope and that is already
> considered as spoilage.... Fillings in bread are sensitive to
> spoilage, it can be meat and dairy based; and both have moderate
> to high water activity as the low to moderate amount of sugar but
> low salt and the usual absence of humectants (which binds water)
> does not decrease water activity much and therefore don't prevent
> osmophilic bacteria, molds and yeast from attacking it causing it
> to spoil....Once fermentation sets in the water activity values can
> increase due to the breakdown of food structure increasing the water
> content of the spoiled food leading to other microbes (including
> pathogen to attack it)..This chain reaction can led to a food hazards
> in many cases and people that are highly sensitive can be the first
> to fall ill. Even this so called jam fillings which can have water
> activity values IIRC of 0.60-0.70


Jams and jellies - .82 to .94

For jams and jellies
My source says the range is from 0. 60-0.85


>yes indeed....but in the bakery ...we are content about the actual Aw readings as the value of pH etc are already established....and if shelf life is the concern....how to reformulate products that will stay longer....is by means of water activity readings and Aw values...

>Establishing a system for kitchens that make sure good safety practices
>are followed means that the cooks don't really need to understand the
>complex biological, chemical and physical conditions. They just need to
>know what to do and how to do it in accordance with the appropriate
..>principles. I want cooks with sympathetic kitchen hands, not
academics.

IMO
They really need to go details so they will have a grasp of the
reaction mechanism.s.and what happened during the cookery process.
And recently .the rise of culinology as a new discipline in cookery
emphasizes that the kitchen personnel must not only be skilled in his
kitchen stuff but also think like a food scientist...



> and have to remind
> myself often....water activity is ubiquitous in the food industry


Water activity is ubiquitous in human life. But a single factor as
explanation for such complex conditions is not sufficient.


> Sorry Bob ...we may differ in our opinions regarding the relevance of
> water activity in the general food processing...


No, I don't think we do. I understand that water activity is a crucial
issue. But it's not the only issue


>It is. It's essentially an index about how much water is available to
>colonizing organisms. Not how much water is in the particular food, but
>how much of it isn't bound. In food science, the lower the index number
>(ranges from 0.0 [no water] to 1.00 [water]), the less water there is
>for the metabolic needs of any critters; so reduced viability for
>culturing in food products. Points to shelf life and storage
>requirements. High water activity and low pH means refrigeration.


In our particular field..(.as I stated previously..)..the pH readings
are already considered and is part of the parameters to be taken to
consideration....But the amount of available water for microbial growth
is given emphasis in long shelf storage...
Say for example a fruit cake...the baker will not measure the batter
or cake pH, but now they emphasize the water activity measurements
for such...to insure a good shelf life. .and it often works!

>Dave----------------------------------------------- Response: Wouldn't
>it be nice if Rose Levy Beranbaum got involved with this NG.

That would be interesting!...

I had been eagerly awaiting this so called baking books luminaries to
participate in NG's.like the rec.food.baking. rec.food.sourdough and
alt.bread.recipes.discussions.
It would make the newsgroups livelier if . other baking authors like
Giesslen,Glazer,, Reinhart, Hamelman,David, etc.. would take part<
grin>....
But its likely be just a pipe dream.....

chembake wrote:

Bob (this one) wrote

>> Establishing a system for kitchens that make sure good safety
>> practices are followed means that the cooks don't really need to
>> understand the complex biological, chemical and physical
>> conditions. They just need to know what to do and how to do it in
>> accordance with the appropriate principles. I want cooks with
>> sympathetic kitchen hands, not
> academics.
>
> IMO They really need to go details so they will have a grasp of
> the reaction mechanism.s.and what happened during the cookery
> process. And recently .the rise of culinology as a new discipline in
> cookery emphasizes that the kitchen personnel must not only be
> skilled in his kitchen stuff but also think like a food scientist...

Not really. They talk about chefs, not whole kitchen staffs. Culinology
now has a voice with Culinology magazine that comes out of the Research
Chefs organization. You might want to check into it. The magazine looks
good, color throughout and lots of industry news.

Pastorio

chembake wrote:
>>Dave----------------------------------------------- Response: Wouldn't
>>it be nice if Rose Levy Beranbaum got involved with this NG.
>
>
> That would be interesting!...
>
> I had been eagerly awaiting this so called

"so called" is an insult. It sounds like a dismissive sneer in speech
and about the same in writing. The simple fact is that R.L.Beranbaum is
a bona fide authority and has been one for a good, long time. Her books
and articles are all the credentials she or anyone would need.

> baking books luminaries to
> participate in NG's.like the rec.food.baking. rec.food.sourdough and
> alt.bread.recipes.discussions.
> It would make the newsgroups livelier if . other baking authors like
> Giesslen,

Wayne Gisslen is probably the most authoritative source about
professional, quantity baking and professional cooking writing today.

> Glazer,

I assume you mean Maggie Glezer. Good writer, good information. Thorough.

> Reinhart,

Peter Reinhart in conversation is absolutely one of the most
authoritative bread bakers I've ever met. His books are very accessible.

> Hamelman,

Practical information and a bit of science from a man who works for a
flour company. He knows what he's talking about.

> David,

When I saw the name, I smiled and thought of this
<http://www.superseventies.com/ssdavidgates.html>

Add Carol Field, Bernard Dupaigne (great name for a baker), Nick
Malgieri, Bernard Clayton...

And who could forget Betty Crocker and Aunt Jemima... <LOL>

> etc.. would take part<
> grin>....
> But its likely be just a pipe dream.....

Yes. I suspect so. None of them with their backgrounds would put up with
being attacked and demeaned. They don't have to. They have nothing to
prove and nothing to defend. They're already known and they've proven
that they know how to bake.

They're not food scientists. For that Shirley Corriher or Harold McGee
would be good liaisons between the academic understandings and the
practical kitchen. Their books are masterworks.

Pastorio

On Sun, 15 Jan 2006 00:47:52 GMT, Dave Bell
> wrote:

>Bob, Roy (Chembake) often has a lot to offer here in these groups.
>He does have a great deal of experience, and his insights from a
>biochemical point of view are frequently very helpful.
>
>But, don't get into an argument with him. As I believe Sam Clemens put
>it, it is like wrestling with a pig: you get muddy and the pig enjoys it!
>
>Dave

I am sure that Bob can hold his own with Roy.
--
Susan N.

"Moral indignation is in most cases two percent moral,
48 percent indignation, and 50 percent envy."
Vittorio De Sica, Italian movie director (1901-1974

chembake wrote:
>>Dave----------------------------------------------- Response: Wouldn't
>>it be nice if Rose Levy Beranbaum got involved with this NG.

> That would be interesting!...


> I had been eagerly awaiting this so called



>"so called" is an insult. It sounds like a dismissive sneer in speech
>and about the same in writing. The simple fact is that R.L.Beranbaum is
>a bona fide authority and has been one for a good, long time. Her books
>and articles are all the credentials she or anyone would need.

Insult...? not IMO...maybe for neophytes....in the same way as bible
bashers..?
For sure
Amateurs would be struck with awe as they regard these cookery authors
as kitchen demigods ?......but not me...
In fact
Never I own books from any these people.... ..... Rather I just
browse them out of curiosity.<grin>.in the library....
It jus that I am not a collector of 'coffee table books'....just as
many of the books of the authors your mentioned belong...

Regarding Biranbaum....IMO...I don't find any of her books
interesting....nor informative...and I had worked in the bakery and
food research lab.. for years without a need for them.........much to
the surprise of some food technologist in the same line who have a
copy of her books in their book shelves........




>Wayne Gisslen is probably the most authoritative source about
>professional, quantity baking and professional cooking writing today.

I agree in that point....Wayne is one of the respectable.... as his
writings relates what is really being used in the baking industry....
In fact a lot of other bakers own his book...and I recommend it to many
bakery trainee and apprentices .
> Glazer,


>I assume you mean Maggie Glezer. Good writer, good information. Thorough.

This Glazier lady is an AIB graduate....but for me she is just a good
writer....not a good baker...Being an alumni of the American Institute
of Baking...these people are used in making breads with
machines.....not with their hands.
The focus more in the science of baking and not in the skill of
becoming a good craft baker in the same tradition of European trained
bakers.
If you look closely at the pictures of that book Artisan Baking across
America....her dough molding skills is amateurish like that of a bakery
trainee .<grin>... I was hoping hope its not her doing the dough
handling........but somebody else...

But the recipes are interesting but she tends to oversimplify it to the
point for the sake of amateur and home bakers...and partly alienating
the institutional bakers.

> Reinhart,


>Peter Reinhart in conversation is absolutely one of the most
>authoritative bread bakers I've ever met. His books are very accessible.

This is a must for home bakers....but practicing bakers in the industry
look at his books with ....disinterests...Its not worth
owning<grin>...unless you are newbie in bakery trade?
..Another thing is he try to explain bakery science in an amateurish
manner.
....
For me he is overrated as a baker.....but just a smart fellow( IIRC
his background was photography ) that is why he really know how to
present his limited skills in a colorful book at the right time.......

> Hamelman,


>Practical information and a bit of science from a man who works for a
>flour company. He knows what he's talking about.


Now this guy I respect.....he is really a qualified baker like Gesslen
and he knows what he is talking about.. and at the same time knows
how to do it properly....
It is not surprising....I know many practicing bakers have his popular
book ...and continuously refer them for some pointers...


When I saw the name, I smiled and thought of this
<http://www.superseventies.com/ssdavidgates.html>

>Add Carol Field---
This lady is just a tourist who visited many Italian bakeries and wrote
a book about it......
Nothing spectacular....although many home bakes regard her as an
authority in Italian baking LOL....

I had more respect for the author of Il Fornaio as he is really a
competent Italian baker...
But just like many good bakers....their writing and presentation skills
to the reading public is not as good as the other popular authors

>, Bernard Dupaigne (great name for a baker), Nick
>Malgieri, Bernard Clayton...

I am not familiar with Dupaigne....Heard about Malgiere but was unable
to browse his books.....Clayton...IMO *******ized French baking...

I would rather read Bilheux et al......Special and Decorative
Bread...its an authoritative book with such competent and detailed
presentation........that is treasured by many bakers .

>And who could forget Betty Crocker and Aunt Jemima... <LOL>
Betty Crocker is just a registered trademark for products from General
Mills in the same line as Pillsbury and indeed they have cookbooks that
suit best for home bakers ....and cooks
Aunt Jemina.../..?...I have not seen if she had some cookery writings .


> etc.. would take part<
> grin>....
> But its likely be just a pipe dream.....


>Yes. I suspect so. None of them with their backgrounds would put up with
>being attacked and demeaned. They don't have to. They have nothing to
>prove and nothing to defend. They're already known and they've proven
>that they know how to bake.

If these people live up to their reputation....they should not be
onion skinned.. . if they know really where they belong.......they have
nothing to fear

Its not about having something to prove but any feedbacks from various
quarters would be a great help in improving the materials of their
cookery books..
I'm certain if they are not hollow people but really live to their
name
They will certainly appreciate any criticism as that will improve the
contents of their future cookery literatures.

>They're not food scientists. For that Shirley Corriher or Harold McGee
>would be good liaisons between the academic understandings and the
>practical kitchen. Their books are masterworks.

Again Shirley Corriher...IMO is just like one of the guys......who is a
notch higher than ordinary cookery authors for their technical
competence....
I am not familiar with Harold McGee.

When I saw the name, I smiled and thought of this
<http://www.superseventies.com/ssdavidgates.html>

David?....not this guy but Elizabeth David....I mean...who is another
well known cookery author ...that is often qouted by cookery
enthusiast.....

> Not really. They talk about chefs, not whole kitchen staffs. Culinology
>now has a voice with Culinology magazine that comes out of the Research
>Chefs organization. You might want to check into it. The magazine looks
>good, color throughout and lots of industry news.

>From the essential point.. as ponted by the originator .Culinology is
the fusion of culinary arts and food technology....that is why I posted
earlier that a kitchen personnel must not be only competent with his or
her cookery skills but also have the inclination to think like a food
scientist.

The term culinology was coined by Winston Riley, former president and a
founder of the Research Chefs Association (RCA), to describe and
formalize the fusion of two disciplines - culinary art and food
technology

IIRC the University of Nebraska was the first to offer this course in
their food related curriculum...
When I viewed the prospectus....i found it impressive and thought that
this should be the way how future chefs should be trained.in the 21st
century...but apprenticeship should not be set aside as its useful in
gaining valuable craftmanship skills and good kitchen presentations.
They should go hand in hand...culinary art and cookery science.

I was even urging some bakers to follow suit and do some cross training
.... go to the university and takes some science courses related to food
processing.
They more you understand the reaction mechanism , ingredient
interactions etc that occur in foodprocessing and understand the
tools of the food scientists ...the better baker you become ....which I
had confirmed already.....

chembake wrote:

We don't have much to discuss.

Pastorio

chembake wrote:
>>Not really. They talk about chefs, not whole kitchen staffs. Culinology
>>now has a voice with Culinology magazine that comes out of the Research
>>Chefs organization. You might want to check into it. The magazine looks
>>good, color throughout and lots of industry news.
>
>
>>From the essential point.. as ponted by the originator .Culinology is
> the fusion of culinary arts and food technology....that is why I posted
> earlier that a kitchen personnel must not be only competent with his or
> her cookery skills but also have the inclination to think like a food
> scientist.

You said that about the kitchen staff already and it wasn't true then
either.

So you don't know about the magazine?

Pastorio

chembake wrote:
>
> >Peter Reinhart in conversation is absolutely one of the most
> >authoritative bread bakers I've ever met. His books are very accessible.
>
> This is a must for home bakers....but practicing bakers in the industry
> look at his books with ....disinterests...Its not worth
> owning<grin>...unless you are newbie in bakery trade?

You act as if you know it all and have no reason to seek the knowledge
of others, or no need for books as reference.

Even the most experienced scientist keeps books written by others on
their shelf for reference and guidence. James Watson kept a copy of
the Maniatus molecular biology "bible" (Molecular cloning: a laboratory
manual) above his lab bench for reference.


> .Another thing is he try to explain bakery science in an amateurish
> manner.
> ...
> For me he is overrated as a baker.....but just a smart fellow( IIRC
> his background was photography ) that is why he really know how to
> present his limited skills in a colorful book at the right time.......
>
> > Hamelman,
>
>
> >Practical information and a bit of science from a man who works for a
> >flour company. He knows what he's talking about.
>
>
> Now this guy I respect.....he is really a qualified baker like Gesslen
> and he knows what he is talking about.. and at the same time knows
> how to do it properly....
> It is not surprising....I know many practicing bakers have his popular
> book ...and continuously refer them for some pointers...

Let me guess: But YOU don't.

-L.

"-L." wrote:

>Let me guess: But YOU don't...

Look here I am not claiming I know everything...and nobody knows
everything ......that is not the ultimate purpose of learning...nor the
attainment of wisdom...But... its is the firm grasp of the essentials
is what is most important...that is considered the attainment of
superior knowledge and the flowering of wisdom.
That is why I don't collect books.....it will take a herculean
effort,,,, to know all the details of those many books...which the
results does not actually lead to the improvement of your
knowledge...but rather to bringing you in a confused state....then you
will strive to read more in order to sort out the self created
confusion....?

Going back to cookery....its not a collection of recipes. and
procedures...but the comprehension of the essentials of those
formulations and methodologiies that is most important....there are
infinite permutation of recipes..but the principles involved in its
preparation is simple....

That is why for me.....I consider cookery as 99% commonsense and only
1% recipe....
Its unfortunate that most people think in reverse.....and that is why
they kept on collecting books... and these authors are laughing their
way to the bank<grin>..

>We don't have much to discuss.
>So you don't know about the magazine?

I think I have seen a specimen of that magazine...in my past visit to
the university library ....but did not get my interest to browse
it...Maybe ....as I already understood what culinology means.....What
is the need for more details then?....

By the way you said....
>You act as if you know it all and have no reason to seek the knowledge
>of others, or no need for books as reference.


If that would be the case I will not need to attend technical
conferences and meetings in food chemistry,bakery and confectionery
technology etc...<grin>. As That is my way of learning new
developments in my field....and to network with similar minded people
also....
Besides its fun to meet my candy and dough 'playmates' ( or what other
people considers as peers) from different parts of the world...


>Even the most experienced scientist keeps books written by others on
>their shelf for reference and guidence. James Watson kept a copy of
>the Maniatus molecular biology "bible" (Molecular cloning: a laboratory
>manual) above his lab bench for reference

Indeed if you are doing research work there should be lots of
reference literature.. if not how can you do your product development
work competently and effectively..?..there should be background
information as the basis for a particular R&D project....and it will be
helpful also when you to make a competent write up of your deeds
<grin>..
But those materials are safely located in the library. ..

For me while in the lab... its most important literatures to be
within reach are the Chemist Handbook and the Merck Index.. The
other relevant details needed are stored in the electronic
database....to be accessible with my fingertips...in the computer
keyuboard...
That may change soon as the most of the handbooks and indexes can now
be accessed by computers ....via CD-ROM or by remote access.....

chembake wrote:
> "-L." wrote:
>
>>Let me guess: But YOU don't...
>
> Look here I am not claiming I know everything...and nobody knows
> everything ......that is not the ultimate purpose of learning...nor the
> attainment of wisdom...But... its is the firm grasp of the essentials
> is what is most important...that is considered the attainment of
> superior knowledge and the flowering of wisdom.

Your opinion. Most people would equate deep knowledge and the capacity
to use it on very sophisticated applications to be "superior knowledge."

Wisdom is to know what you don't know.

> That is why I don't collect books.....it will take a herculean
> effort,,,, to know all the details of those many books...

And that's the reason to read books? "To know all the details of those
many books?" One has to *memorize* books for them to be useful? There
are no ideas you haven't already thought of in them? None?

So because you think books are for remembering all the details, you read
none so that isn't a problem. Can the illogic of that escape you?

> which the
> results does not actually lead to the improvement of your
> knowledge...

And if you don't read them, how can you know whether it will result in
increased knowledge?

> but rather to bringing you in a confused state....then you
> will strive to read more in order to sort out the self created
> confusion....?

This is plain idiotic logic. Reading will bring you to a confused state,
you say, so don't read. Keep your knowledge at its current state
forever, as though human thought and technology should be so static.

> Going back to cookery....its not a collection of recipes. and
> procedures...but the comprehension of the essentials of those
> formulations and methodologiies that is most important....there are
> infinite permutation of recipes..but the principles involved in its
> preparation is simple....

This is more nonsense. There's no understanding of principles without
ongoing study of the field. New technologies, new tools, new
instrumentation. New research findings in food science.

> That is why for me.....I consider cookery as 99% commonsense and only
> 1% recipe....

Utterly absurd. Biology isn't common sense. Nor is chemistry. Physics.
Technique isn't common sense. All these things are based on many, many
principles extracted over time from the efforts of many people. Common
sense offers nothing without detailed knowledge. Common sense is the
capacity to make good judgements - which presupposes knowledge of
successful experience, unsuccessful experience and the experience of
others. That's information - necessary to good judgement - and the best
place to find it is in books.

> Its unfortunate that most people think in reverse.....and that is why
> they kept on collecting books... and these authors are laughing their
> way to the bank<grin>...

<grin> indeed. The truly sad part of your anti-knowledge, anti-study,
anti-information viewpoint is that you get, as you have, the false idea
that you're knowledgeable. You're perhaps knowledgeable for 1985 or
1990. The world has moved beyond that and will continue to.

And for as long as you persist in ridiculing books, the people who write
them and progress in getting more knowledge, that's how far behind the
current state of understanding of food science, food technology and food
quality you will always be.

Being a professional means acting like one. A professional keeps up with
his field through books, publications, seminars, organizations and
constant experimentation. It means performing the daily processes of the
field in a scholarly way, always looking for new information. Always
looking. You've stopped that if you ever did it. You think that meetings
are the way to keep up with what's going on in the field. Nope.

Pastorio

chembake wrote:

>>We don't have much to discuss.
>>So you don't know about the magazine?
>
> I think I have seen a specimen of that magazine...in my past visit to
> the university library ....but did not get my interest to browse
> it...Maybe ....as I already understood what culinology means.....What
> is the need for more details then?....

What a profoundly ridiculous thing to say.

Pastorio

LOL! lick your wounds Bob!

Bob, I just realize now that your are shallow person......Its a waste
of time explaining the essence of my message to a person consumed by
egotism...
I leave it to you to digest its meaning....and how to interpret it
according according to the finite level of your understanding<grin>..

chembake wrote:
> LOL! lick your wounds Bob!

Sure. Let's see...

So when I said you were insulting and you denied it and then insulted
more, that was an example of your sincerity and honesty, right? Or maybe
an attempt to wound, but sneakily, as I pointed out...

You talk like a Luddite, showing your deep unprofessionalism and your
proud ignorance, and I'm wounded? You don't know much food science
beyond water activity, but think you do and try to peddle the flawed
understanding here, and I'm wounded? You proudly exclaim that you don't
read books or professional publications, and I'm wounded? Your logic is
even worse than your phony, out-dated professionalism.

Could you be more of a clownish moron?

That's a rhetorical question. Don't bother your pretty little head about it.

Pastorio

chembake wrote:

> Bob, I just realize now that your are shallow person......Its a waste
> of time explaining the essence of my message to a person consumed by
> egotism...

<LOL> Oh, the essence of your message was very clear. And very tiny. AND
very self-serving.

> I leave it to you to digest its meaning....and how to interpret it
> according according to the finite level of your understanding<grin>..

Your minuscule message requires not so much digestion as knee slapping
laughter. The sheer, ignorant superficiality of what you've posted here
in the past few days explains all that anyone needs to know about you.
Unfortunately.

It's terribly sad that you have so little going for yourself that this
is what you end up doing. First, you demean pretty much everybody who
doesn't march lockstep with you. Then you demean books, the ongoing
progress in what you say is your professional field. Then you talk crap
food science oversimplifying a complex issue by attributing it all to
water activity.

Your nastiness punctuated by your <grin> is still nastiness. You're not
interested in dialogue; you only want to read your words. Pity...

Pastorio

LOL! shallow bob don't cry....okay...

LOL!
Bobby boy you are entitled to your opinion...but it does not diminish
my capabilities either.. besides ... dialogues, are are not for
shallow individuals...when I see your replies going in different
directions.. and becoming petty .....I realize that further discussion
with you is of no use....<grin>...

Better stick with your pots and pans and stick also and your
traditional cookery...forget about science...,culinology ..its not for
you.either.......<grin>..its beyond your grasp....<grin>...