When making bread in a stand mixer, is it best to:
Put the liquid into the bowl first and add the flour to it ...or...
Put the flour into the bowl and add the liquid to it.

Why?

I'm a newbie at making bread, am using a KA mixer to make two loaves (
about 3c bread flour to 1.5c WhiteWholeWheat flour ...water, oil,
honey, etc. )

Thanks in advance for any help.
Patrick

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> When making bread in a stand mixer, is it best to:
> Put the liquid into the bowl first and add the flour to it ...or...
> Put the flour into the bowl and add the liquid to it.
>
> Why?
>
> I'm a newbie at making bread, am using a KA mixer to make two loaves (
> about 3c bread flour to 1.5c WhiteWholeWheat flour ...water, oil,
> honey, etc. )
>
> Thanks in advance for any help.
> Patrick
>
Put the liquids in the bowl first, then add most of the flour. The flour is
the variable. You may need less flour than called for in the recipe simply
because the particular flour you are using may absorb more liquid than the
recipe indicates. This can be caused by using different flour (brand to
brand, time of year, bread flour versus all purpose flour, etc.) If you
dump all the flour in you have no way of controlling the way the dough turns
out. While it is possible to add more liquid to bread dough, it isn't the
easiest thing. It's far easier to add more flour as needed. Come on over
to alt.bread.recipes and ask the same question.
Janet

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> When making bread in a stand mixer, is it best to:
> Put the liquid into the bowl first and add the flour to it ...or...
> Put the flour into the bowl and add the liquid to it.
>
> Why?
>
> I'm a newbie at making bread, am using a KA mixer to make two loaves (
> about 3c bread flour to 1.5c WhiteWholeWheat flour ...water, oil,
> honey, etc. )
>

I would suggest that you read the cookbook that came with the mixer. There
is a section on making bread with several recipe. I use instant yeast, so I
put the flour in the bowl along with all the other dry ingredients. I turn
on the mixer and slowly add the liquid until the dough has formed to my
liking. If I am using a recipe (as opposed to just improvising), I use the
minimum amount of flour indicated. For instance, if the recipe says to use
5 - 6 cup, I use 5 cups. In the event that you add too much liquid, you can
add flour, a few tablespoons at a time, until the dough is just right. Too
sticky is better than too dry.

"Vox Humana" > wrote in message
. ..
>
> > wrote in message
> oups.com...
>> When making bread in a stand mixer, is it best to:
>> Put the liquid into the bowl first and add the flour to it ...or...
>> Put the flour into the bowl and add the liquid to it.
>>
>> Why?
>>
>> I'm a newbie at making bread, am using a KA mixer to make two loaves (
>> about 3c bread flour to 1.5c WhiteWholeWheat flour ...water, oil,
>> honey, etc. )
>>
>
> I would suggest that you read the cookbook that came with the mixer.
> There is a section on making bread with several recipe. I use instant
> yeast, so I put the flour in the bowl along with all the other dry
> ingredients. I turn on the mixer and slowly add the liquid until the
> dough has formed to my liking. If I am using a recipe (as opposed to just
> improvising), I use the minimum amount of flour indicated. For instance,
> if the recipe says to use 5 - 6 cup, I use 5 cups. In the event that you
> add too much liquid, you can add flour, a few tablespoons at a time, until
> the dough is just right. Too sticky is better than too dry.
I've found that this method won't work with moister doughs. If you start
with the flour in the bowl and then add the liquid while the mixer turns,
the dough will reach the "clean off the bowl" stage when the dough is too
dry. It is virtually impossible to add water at this stage. It is much
better to start with the liquid in the bowl first and, indeed, this is what
the books with my mixers tell you to do. With the food processor one adds
the liquid to the flour while the machine runs.
Graham

"graham" > wrote in message
news:PfXzf.403116$ki.155422@pd7tw2no...
>
> "Vox Humana" > wrote in message
> . ..
>>
>> > wrote in message
>> oups.com...
>>> When making bread in a stand mixer, is it best to:
>>> Put the liquid into the bowl first and add the flour to it ...or...
>>> Put the flour into the bowl and add the liquid to it.
>>>
>>> Why?
>>>
>>> I'm a newbie at making bread, am using a KA mixer to make two loaves (
>>> about 3c bread flour to 1.5c WhiteWholeWheat flour ...water, oil,
>>> honey, etc. )
>>>
>>
>> I would suggest that you read the cookbook that came with the mixer.
>> There is a section on making bread with several recipe. I use instant
>> yeast, so I put the flour in the bowl along with all the other dry
>> ingredients. I turn on the mixer and slowly add the liquid until the
>> dough has formed to my liking. If I am using a recipe (as opposed to
>> just improvising), I use the minimum amount of flour indicated. For
>> instance, if the recipe says to use 5 - 6 cup, I use 5 cups. In the
>> event that you add too much liquid, you can add flour, a few tablespoons
>> at a time, until the dough is just right. Too sticky is better than too
>> dry.
> I've found that this method won't work with moister doughs. If you start
> with the flour in the bowl and then add the liquid while the mixer turns,
> the dough will reach the "clean off the bowl" stage when the dough is too
> dry. It is virtually impossible to add water at this stage. It is much
> better to start with the liquid in the bowl first and, indeed, this is
> what the books with my mixers tell you to do. With the food processor one
> adds the liquid to the flour while the machine runs.
> Graham

I guess it all depends on how fast you add the liquid. As with most kitchen
tasks, what works for one person doesn't always work for the next.

>When making bread in a stand mixer,


Generally
Combine the dry ingredients and dump it into the mixing bowl...
While the machine is running at low speed , add the liquids gradually
until it forms a mass that is either soft or firm depending upon the
type of bread you are planning to make.
Then the mixer speed is changed to medium speed and let it run until
the dough is smooth and elastic...

>>Why?

The simplest answer is ....because that is the way it was practiced
ever since and produced usually consistent results <grin>..

"chembake" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> >When making bread in a stand mixer,
>
>
> Generally
> Combine the dry ingredients and dump it into the mixing bowl...
> While the machine is running at low speed , add the liquids gradually
> until it forms a mass that is either soft or firm depending upon the
> type of bread you are planning to make.
> Then the mixer speed is changed to medium speed and let it run until
> the dough is smooth and elastic...
>
>>>Why?
>
> The simplest answer is ....because that is the way it was practiced
> ever since and produced usually consistent results <grin>..
>
you're right, of course. I'm just not thinking straight these days. I've
got to stay away from groups until I get myself straightened around. Sorry.
Janet

>you're right, of course. I'm just not thinking straight these days. I've
got to stay away from groups until I get myself straightened around.

Janet your method is also legitimate and you were able to provide a
valid reason for such technique....
In fact I have used that system you mentioned occasionally ....

On 20 Jan 2006 00:03:12 -0800, "chembake" > wrote:

>>you're right, of course. I'm just not thinking straight these days. I've
>got to stay away from groups until I get myself straightened around.
>
>Janet your method is also legitimate and you were able to provide a
>valid reason for such technique....
>In fact I have used that system you mentioned occasionally ....


I vary my technique according to the bread I am making, whether I am
using yeast, sourdough, biga, poolish, etc, the hydration I am trying
to achieve.

Besides I like to provide excitement and entertainment for the bread
fairies.

I confess that lately, I use no recipes at all for lean breads. I
start something the night before with yeast & flour(s) or sourdough &
flour(s) & in the morning toss in some water & whatever type or types
of flour I want to play with that day. I have found it quite an
interesting exercise.

I got teased by the lab guys at the place my husband works for once in
awhile....they say I am now "in the zone" and he needs to beware.

Boron

Interesting to see the variety of responses in this thread....

The reason I was asking is that I've noticed that sometimes the mix
reaches a point where the ball of semi-dry dough (dry on the outside,
wet on the inside) clings to the hook and if there's lots of flour in
the bottom of the bowl, the ball spins around so that the hook
effectively does nothing. Alternatively, if the flour is added to the
liquid, it seems to be more difficult to get it to the "ball" stage....
...but what I'm thinking I should do is set it aside to hydrate for
20-30 mins before adding the final bit of flour - otherwise there's a
danger of adding too much flour at the beginning in an effort to get it
to "ball-up" properly so the kneading can begin.

Patrick

> wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Interesting to see the variety of responses in this thread....
>
> The reason I was asking is that I've noticed that sometimes the mix
> reaches a point where the ball of semi-dry dough (dry on the outside,
> wet on the inside) clings to the hook and if there's lots of flour in
> the bottom of the bowl, the ball spins around so that the hook
> effectively does nothing.

You can always add a little water to the bowl to moisten the flour on the
bottom. It will then attach to the ball. If in the end the dough is too
sticky, you can add a couple tablespoons of flour. Better yet, remove the
sticky dough and knead it a few times on a floured board. Too sticky is
better than too dry.

Parick wrote:

>The reason I was asking is that I've noticed that sometimes the mix
>reaches a point where the ball of semi-dry dough (dry on the outside,
>wet on the inside) clings to the hook and if there's lots of flour in
>the bottom of the bowl, the ball spins around so that the hook
>effectively does nothing.

That happens if the amount of liquids added is insufficient and the
dough ends firm. In addition to that if you add water slowly there
comes a point that the thorough hydration is impeded by the surrounding
flour particles that commingle with the partly hydrated portions making
it difficult for the water to seep in.

In general bakery practice if the baker reached that point, specially
if they are not experienced they mix the dough at higher speed to
force the partially hydrated dough to take in more water.That results
in the dough becoming warm due to friction and what results is a higher
dough temperature makes it tighter with poor fermentation performance ,
yeasty taste and poor bread flavor.
If it happens ,that improper hydration occurs, what should be done is
to take the dough out and chop it to small pieces sprinkle enough
cool water evenly while blending it with hand . chop it again and
repeat the cycle until you think that you had incorporated enough
liquid in that dough. Put it back in the bowl run the machine at low
speed to medium speed until its turns out into a uniformly hydrated
mass.which in the end will come out like a normal dough.

I can do it in small scale with foodprocessor nearby to do the
chopping ; or in institutional scale I use the Stephan vertical cutter
mixer to do the job. It usually ends that the dough does not need more
mixing time once it transferred] it to the planetary mixer bowl to get
it properly developed to pass the window pane test.

> Alternatively, if the flour is added to the
>liquid, it seems to be more difficult to get it to the "ball" stage....

If the amount of ingredients added to the bowl size is not enough that
the agitator cannot stir it properly it will takes so much time get
to the ball stage. The real problem with many planetary mixers is that
the dough hook is not efficient in the mixing process. This happens if
the amount of dough is too small for the dough hook to knead it
effectively . What I will do if I had the situation where the ratio of
the dough to the bowl size is not appropriate; I use the paddle
instead for mixing it properly and the dough comes out normally ..
..If supposing the paddle is not around I just run the mixer at higher
speed as the greater RPM gets the dough really worked out.

People usually don't do that( paddle change) as its not
'politically correct'; the dough hook is for dough making while the
paddle or beater is for cake mixing, but that is not absolutely true.
In fact if I make sweet dough where the dough is rather wet and
remains sticking to the bowl sides even when already developed the
paddle can do the mixing better than the dough hook.
.. In some bigger bowls of the Hobart mixer there is what is called the
sweet dough beater that looks like a paddle with some corrugation in
the sides
It performs both the scraping , pulling and slapping of the dough
resulting in good mixing performance with wet dough

...but what I'm thinking I should do is set it aside to hydrate for

>20-30 mins before adding the final bit of flour - otherwise there's a
>danger of adding too much flour at the beginning in an effort to get it
>to "ball-up" properly so the kneading can begin

That is another good procedure....which is okay if you are s using
small amounts of yeast, but does not often work if you are using an
accelerated or no time dough system where yeast quantities are higher.
Yes the dough can become hydrated in time but the bread taste often
taste yeasty and had poor texture, eating quality etc.

Boron Elgar wrote

On 20 Jan 2006 00:03:12 -0800, "chembake" > wrote:



>>you're right, of course. I'm just not thinking straight these days. I've
>got to stay away from groups until I get myself straightened around.

>Janet your method is also legitimate and you were able to provide a
>valid reason for such technique....
>In fact I have used that system you mentioned occasionally ....



>I vary my technique according to the bread I am making, whether I am
>using yeast, sourdough, biga, poolish, etc, the hydration I am trying
>to achieve.

>Besides I like to provide excitement and entertainment for the bread
>fairies.

When I was a small kid watching my mom do the baking, I pull a chair
near the machine immediately climb on it and watch the machine
while running as I find it interesting to see how flour gradually
changes to the dough or batter....

>I confess that lately, I use no recipes at all for lean breads. I
>start something the night before with yeast & flour(s) or sourdough &
>flour(s) & in the morning toss in some water & whatever type or types
>of flour I want to play with that day. I have found it quite an
>interesting exercise.

Its good to know that you have come to that realization where recipes
become less important ....(incidentally few people have achieved that
insight ) .It echoes the saying ...that the more experienced you get in
cookery, everything comes spontaneously....Measurements lose its
meaning.....as you have already perfected your technique... What ever
you do intuitively now is the same as the being done logically in the
past.....

This is one of the reason ....that as you get more experience in what
you do in in particular kitchen work reading cookery books does not
give you any more knowledge....as you had already learned it by
heart....that details and particularities enunciated by cookery authors
become meaning less....

In fact in a some occasions I had seen some highly skilled bakers and
cooks throw their cookery and recipe books to the garbage bin or give
it to somebody else...

What is their point.. (some people ask them).for doing so ...? .they
said there is nothing more to learn there.. or it has become
useless.<grin>.


>I got teased by the lab guys at the place my husband works for once in
>awhile....they say I am now "in the zone" and he needs to beware.

You should be happy ....that you have reached that point ...in your
baking skill...Therefore your hubby should be proud of your
achievements...and .not to be worried about

On 20 Jan 2006 11:18:02 -0800, "chembake" > wrote:

>
>>I got teased by the lab guys at the place my husband works for once in
>>awhile....they say I am now "in the zone" and he needs to beware.
>
>You should be happy ....that you have reached that point ...in your
>baking skill...Therefore your hubby should be proud of your
>achievements...and .not to be worried about


He isn't really worried, not am I The lab guys were being funny..The
Hub is as good or better than I am. Great cook, excellent baker.
Boron

What I continue to see is that the dough gets to the "Ball stage" and
then no matter how much flour I add it reverts to what might be called
the "Pre-ball-stage"; meaning that about 25% of the dough is clinging
to the dough hook while the remainder is in a level mass clinging to
the sides of the bowl. The part clinging to the hook rotates around
while the remaining mass doesn't move very much.

Tonight I made my standard recipe ("Honey Whole Wheat from Beth
Hensperger's 'Bread Made Easy' ") and even though I added 40% more
flour than the recipe called for the situation described above
occurred. It reached the "Ball Stage" then reverted back to the
"pre-ball-stage" within about 90 seconds even though I had given the
first portion of flour about 20 minutes to hydrate. In other words, I
added enough flour to the liquids to make a very thick paste then left
it to hydrate for about 20 mins.

I'm assuming that in order to properly knead the bread it's important
for it to be in the form of a ball which is being crushed or squished
by the hook as it rotates ...otherwise there's a danger of a tearing
action developing if the dough sticks to the sides of the bowl while
the hook is rotating with a small partial doughball clinging to it.

I just can't believe that this isn't happening to anyone else. What do
you do about it? I even tried to add flour to the sides of the bowl in
an attempt to keep it at the ball stage but when it gets to 40% over
the recipe I figured I didn't want to go any further.

Patrick

wrote:
> What I continue to see is that the dough gets to the "Ball stage" and
> then no matter how much flour I add it reverts to what might be called
> the "Pre-ball-stage"; meaning that about 25% of the dough is clinging
> to the dough hook while the remainder is in a level mass clinging to
> the sides of the bowl. The part clinging to the hook rotates around
> while the remaining mass doesn't move very much.

Why do you feel that you have to add more flour? How about follow the
recipe closely (a different one than you tried this time) to see what
happens without second-guessing it. I suggest trying a very basic white
bread recipe and follow it exactly. No additions, no subtractions.

> Tonight I made my standard recipe ("Honey Whole Wheat from Beth
> Hensperger's 'Bread Made Easy' ") and even though I added 40% more
> flour than the recipe called for the situation described above
> occurred. It reached the "Ball Stage" then reverted back to the
> "pre-ball-stage" within about 90 seconds even though I had given the
> first portion of flour about 20 minutes to hydrate. In other words, I
> added enough flour to the liquids to make a very thick paste then left
> it to hydrate for about 20 mins.

Don't do that. Put the dry ingredients into the work bowl and add
liquids to it. If the recipe gives a range of liquid to add, put the
lower figure in. Then do what it tells you to do.

> I'm assuming that in order to properly knead the bread it's important
> for it to be in the form of a ball which is being crushed or squished
> by the hook as it rotates ...

My bread doughs almost never behave so perfectly. There's almost always
a bit of sticking, particularly with the stickier doughs. Read more
about bread doughs. Anything by Maggie Glezer. Carol Field's baking
books. "Bread" by Bernard Dupaigne.

> otherwise there's a danger of a tearing
> action developing if the dough sticks to the sides of the bowl while
> the hook is rotating with a small partial doughball clinging to it.

That's not a danger, it's a stage. It sounds like you're getting
"creative" with the recipes. It also sounds like your dough is way too
dry - too much flour.

> I just can't believe that this isn't happening to anyone else. What do
> you do about it?

Has never happened to me. I use a Kitchenaid mixer with dough hook.

> I even tried to add flour to the sides of the bowl in
> an attempt to keep it at the ball stage but when it gets to 40% over
> the recipe I figured I didn't want to go any further.

Try a different recipe from an authoritative source and stick to it.

Pastorio

Bob (this one) wrote:
> Why do you feel that you have to add more flour? How about follow the
> recipe closely

I did follow the recipe last time and the dough didn't "ball up". I
feel the need to add more flour because the dough doesn't stay
balled-up for the duration of the kneading.

> > I just can't believe that this isn't happening to anyone else. What do
> > you do about it?
> Has never happened to me. I use a Kitchenaid mixer with dough hook.

Okay ...what does happen to you? How long do you knead and what does
your dough look like when you knead? Does it ball-up and stay
balled-up for ten minutes of kneading (ie. doesn't stick to the bowl)?

Thanks in advance for your feedback,
Patrick

wrote:
> Bob (this one) wrote:
>
>>Why do you feel that you have to add more flour? How about follow the
>>recipe closely
>
> I did follow the recipe last time and the dough didn't "ball up". I
> feel the need to add more flour because the dough doesn't stay
> balled-up for the duration of the kneading.

It won't necessarily. The dough hook will slap some against the side of
the bowl and tear itself out of the ball and pick up some more and flap
it around... depending on the kind of dough it is.

Follow the recipe all the way through one time. And do a straightforward
bread - a white bread so you can see how it should go.

>>>I just can't believe that this isn't happening to anyone else. What do
>>>you do about it?
>>
>>Has never happened to me. I use a Kitchenaid mixer with dough hook.
>
> Okay ...what does happen to you? How long do you knead and what does
> your dough look like when you knead? Does it ball-up and stay
> balled-up for ten minutes of kneading (ie. doesn't stick to the bowl)?

Different bread doughs behave differently. It sounds like you expect
them all to act the same way. Some stick - my French bread is a sticky
dough - my crusty rolls are stiffer and don't stick as much. A black rye
bread I do ends up very dense and the dough is sticky. I scrape it out
of the bowl. Knead more by hand.

You want general principles that apply to all breads and I'm afraid
you're in for disappointment if you look for that expecting not to have
to make it differently for different types.

Read more, like I told you, about bread. You're guessing a lot and
bakery recipes aren't so forgiving. You'll be astonished that all of a
sudden, after a bit of reading, it'll all click into place. You'll "get
it." But first, you need to ride the shoulders of some giants. Check out
those books I mentioned in my earlier post - libraries are good for that.

Pastorio

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> What I continue to see is that the dough gets to the "Ball stage" and
> then no matter how much flour I add it reverts to what might be called
> the "Pre-ball-stage"; meaning that about 25% of the dough is clinging
> to the dough hook while the remainder is in a level mass clinging to
> the sides of the bowl. The part clinging to the hook rotates around
> while the remaining mass doesn't move very much.
>
> Tonight I made my standard recipe ("Honey Whole Wheat from Beth
> Hensperger's 'Bread Made Easy' ") and even though I added 40% more
> flour than the recipe called for the situation described above
> occurred. It reached the "Ball Stage" then reverted back to the
> "pre-ball-stage" within about 90 seconds even though I had given the
> first portion of flour about 20 minutes to hydrate. In other words, I
> added enough flour to the liquids to make a very thick paste then left
> it to hydrate for about 20 mins.
>
> I'm assuming that in order to properly knead the bread it's important
> for it to be in the form of a ball which is being crushed or squished
> by the hook as it rotates ...otherwise there's a danger of a tearing
> action developing if the dough sticks to the sides of the bowl while
> the hook is rotating with a small partial doughball clinging to it.
>
> I just can't believe that this isn't happening to anyone else. What do
> you do about it? I even tried to add flour to the sides of the bowl in
> an attempt to keep it at the ball stage but when it gets to 40% over
> the recipe I figured I didn't want to go any further.

It has happed to me. When things go wrong with the mixer, the best thing to
do is to remove the dough and work it by hand. If you are having this
problem on a regular basis, I would try another brand of flour. High
protein flour will absorb more water and you will need less and visa-versa.
In the end, it doesn't matter what the recipe says, it matters what the
dough feel like. If you need more flour and the final product is good, then
use more flour and don't worry about it. I have that book and I don't
recall having any major problems with the recipes, although I do think that
I tend to use more flour than she calls for.

Bob (this one) wrote:
> Knead more by hand.

I've kneaded by hand; I don't have time for it. Large bakeries
have huge Hobart Mixers with big dough hooks. They don't take it out
and knead it by hand. There must be some logic to this that someone is
capable of verbalizing.

> Check out
> those books I mentioned in my earlier post - libraries are good for that.

Well my library has only one of them ...will get it next time. Also
they have a good video that I've seen once and need to see again; "La
Rosas [art of fine bread]"(or something). Also I recently got from our
library Reinhart's "The Bread Baker's apprentice" That's a good one
isn't it?

Patrick

wrote:
> Bob (this one) wrote:
>
>> Knead more by hand.
>
> I've kneaded by hand; I don't have time for it.

Then, as kindly as I can say it, don't try to make bread. Bread takes
its own time to be right. It can't be rushed and still get the quality
of result. My suggestion for you to knead was for you to slow down and
get a feel for the dough. Your hands can tell you more about the dough
than your eyes. You seem intent on making it an automatic thing and I'm
afraid it doesn't work that way.

> Large bakeries have huge Hobart Mixers with big dough hooks. They
> don't take it out and knead it by hand. There must be some logic to
> this that someone is capable of verbalizing.

Large bakeries are using very different ingredients, equipment, recipes
and techniques than you are.

You're trying to make it too much of an intellectual, abstract situation
and my sense is that baking can't be thought of that way. Once again,
I'll say that different doughs have very different characteristics. You
can't extrapolate a single set of criteria for them all.

>> Check out those books I mentioned in my earlier post - libraries
>> are good for that.
>
> Well my library has only one of them ...will get it next time. Also
> they have a good video that I've seen once and need to see again;
> "La Rosas [art of fine bread]"(or something). Also I recently got
> from our library Reinhart's "The Bread Baker's apprentice" That's a
> good one isn't it?

Yes, it is. And there are lots of good online sites about baking. And
some bad ones. After reading a dozen or so, you'll begin to see which
are authoritative and which are blowing smoke. But there's no substitute
for greater knowledge and more hands-on experience when considering bread.

Pastorio

Bob (this one) wrote:
> > Large bakeries have huge Hobart Mixers with big dough hooks. They
> > don't take it out and knead it by hand. There must be some logic to
> > this that someone is capable of verbalizing.
>
> Large bakeries are using very different ingredients, equipment, recipes
> and techniques than you are.

Are you saying that these ingredients, recipes and techniques don't
scale down to a smaller KA "Professional Heavy-Duty 475w" 5qt mixer
doing a 2-loaf recipe? When they knead their dough does it stick to
the bowl and tear as the hook rotates?

Patrick

I'm using: King Arthur Bread Flour and King Arthur White Whole Wheat
flour (both unbleached). Also I sometimes use a very small amount
(~half cup) of Buckwheat flour (I'm a buckwheat person).

Patrick

>I've kneaded by hand; I don't have time for it. Large bakeries
>have huge Hobart Mixers with big dough hooks. They don't take it out
>and knead it by hand. There must be some logic to this that someone is
>capable of verbalizing

Those bakers using machines understand the principles. of the KNEADING
PROCESS ..but unfortunately for you .IMO ..YOU DON'T...!

The logic of your failure is indeed simple...that is .you are
inflexible or stubborn , apprehensive , and impatient...

Inflexible...you are unwilling to try some ideas posted here

Apprehensive....you are worried that the dough is too wet that is why
you dump more flour that results in your problem

Impatient- you don't have the patience to get the feel of the dough by
hand by practicing hand kneading and relate that to the machine mxing
and conversely ....You want to make the dough .....ONLY with machines!

If you don't understand how the dough evolves from the flour and water
by doing it manually and getting the right feel about iit before you
use the mixers will be difficult for your inflexible mind to grasp the
basic principles of breadmaking.even if you have the state of the art
machineries to do the task.

Those three defects....Inflexibility, apprehensiveness, and
impatience...are the ones that you have to tackle first before ....you
try to obtain the solution to your 'simple 'problem

..That are the main faults that I find from some slow to learn
students when I was a part time teacher in the baking school....in
the past


If you are impatient, but inexperienced and demand the result to
come out consistent and perfect the first time you make a certain
dough recipe .you will never get what you want.

...Please take time to think and relate to your faulty experience the
guidance from many posters of your thread .

What is happening to you can be related to the Chinese saying...

..You want to drink my tea ,, then empty your cup first so I can pour my
brew into it...
That is the way it is...

If you insist in your way that literally your cup is full ( or you
think that you are already knowledgeable?) and don't want to decant
it as you think its as good ( or your methods is already the right one
) then this thread will end in a stalemate.....this thread will
perpetuate without you absorbing anything useful from it.

You want to profit from the posters ideas here.....Re-read the posts
and think...about it...

..Some ideas posted in the thread may not be the answer you are
looking for ..but they are related to your question ..... If and only
IF you exercise patience and think about it...you will realize that
all posts to this thread have important views that can help solve
your problem...

wrote:
> Bob (this one) wrote:
>
>>>Large bakeries have huge Hobart Mixers with big dough hooks. They
>>>don't take it out and knead it by hand. There must be some logic to
>>>this that someone is capable of verbalizing.
>>
>>Large bakeries are using very different ingredients, equipment, recipes
>>and techniques than you are.
>
> Are you saying that these ingredients, recipes and techniques don't
> scale down to a smaller KA "Professional Heavy-Duty 475w" 5qt mixer
> doing a 2-loaf recipe?

They don't. Baking recipes don't scale as readily as most others. But
you're missing the point: commercial bakeries aren't doing the same kind
of thing you are. It's, for all intents and purposes, a different series
of tasks. Note "different ingredients" and "different equipment" and
"different recipes" and "different techniques."

> When they knead their dough does it stick to
> the bowl and tear as the hook rotates?

Forgive me, Patrick, but I grow impatient with this. Go read about bread
and baking. When you know more, ask more questions not so basic and
filled with conjectures. Maybe read a professional baking book with
professional recipes - Wayne Gisslen's is easy reading and very
authoritative - so you can grasp the differences.

What seems like a simple subject is a good deal more complex than it
appears from the point of view of a rookie if you try to analyze it this
way. But do note that millions of amateur bakers produce perfectly
serviceable breads every day without knowing all the technical
intricacies. It's entirely possible to sophisticate oneself unto paralysis.

Pastorio

On Sat, 21 Jan 2006 14:51:24 -0500, "Bob (this one)" >
wrote:

>Your hands can tell you more about the dough
>than your eyes. You seem intent on making it an automatic thing and I'm
>afraid it doesn't work that way.

Tell me that you can make 75 loaves on your next shift and then tell
me how your eyes and your arms are doing.

A loaf....OK................production yet leads to another
conclusion.

On 20 Jan 2006 20:17:47 -0800, wrote:

>What I continue to see is that the dough gets to the "Ball stage" and
>then no matter how much flour I add it reverts to what might be called
>the "Pre-ball-stage"; meaning that about 25% of the dough is clinging
>to the dough hook while the remainder is in a level mass clinging to
>the sides of the bowl. The part clinging to the hook rotates around
>while the remaining mass doesn't move very much.
>
>Tonight I made my standard recipe ("Honey Whole Wheat from Beth
>Hensperger's 'Bread Made Easy' ") and even though I added 40% more
>flour than the recipe called for the situation described above
>occurred. It reached the "Ball Stage" then reverted back to the
>"pre-ball-stage" within about 90 seconds even though I had given the
>first portion of flour about 20 minutes to hydrate. In other words, I
>added enough flour to the liquids to make a very thick paste then left
>it to hydrate for about 20 mins.
>
>I'm assuming that in order to properly knead the bread it's important
>for it to be in the form of a ball which is being crushed or squished
>by the hook as it rotates ...otherwise there's a danger of a tearing
>action developing if the dough sticks to the sides of the bowl while
>the hook is rotating with a small partial doughball clinging to it.
>
>I just can't believe that this isn't happening to anyone else. What do
>you do about it? I even tried to add flour to the sides of the bowl in
>an attempt to keep it at the ball stage but when it gets to 40% over
>the recipe I figured I didn't want to go any further.
>
>Patrick

Hi Patrick,

Often, a simple resting of the dough will eliminate the
stickiness problem:

I'd suggest mixing the ingredients just long enough that
there are no pockets of dry flour.

Then, do nothing with it for about twenty minutes.

Then, continue with whatever process you intended.

It is likely to solve the problem you describe, and adding
all that extra flour is not the route to success.

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

Ward Abbott wrote:
> On Sat, 21 Jan 2006 14:51:24 -0500, "Bob (this one)" >
> wrote:
>
>>Your hands can tell you more about the dough
>>than your eyes. You seem intent on making it an automatic thing and I'm
>>afraid it doesn't work that way.
>
> Tell me that you can make 75 loaves on your next shift and then tell
> me how your eyes and your arms are doing.
>
> A loaf....OK..production yet leads to another conclusion.

The person I wrote that to is baking in his home. It's not a production
situation anything like what we did in my restaurants. If it were, the
suggestion would obviously have been different, couched in professional
terms. But the whole discussion wouldn't have happened with a pro.

Pastorio

Kenneth wrote:
> Hi Patrick,
> Often, a simple resting of the dough will eliminate the
> stickiness problem:
> I'd suggest mixing the ingredients just long enough that
> there are no pockets of dry flour.
> Then, do nothing with it for about twenty minutes.

Yes, Okay this sounds like a good plan.
Thanks Kenneth,
Patrick

wrote:
> What I continue to see is that the dough gets to the "Ball stage" and
> then no matter how much flour I add it reverts to what might be called
> the "Pre-ball-stage"; meaning that about 25% of the dough is clinging
> to the dough hook while the remainder is in a level mass clinging to
> the sides of the bowl. The part clinging to the hook rotates around
> while the remaining mass doesn't move very much.
>
> Tonight I made my standard recipe ("Honey Whole Wheat from Beth
> Hensperger's 'Bread Made Easy' ") and even though I added 40% more
> flour than the recipe called for the situation described above
> occurred. It reached the "Ball Stage" then reverted back to the
> "pre-ball-stage" within about 90 seconds even though I had given the
> first portion of flour about 20 minutes to hydrate. In other words, I
> added enough flour to the liquids to make a very thick paste then left
> it to hydrate for about 20 mins.
>
> I'm assuming that in order to properly knead the bread it's important
> for it to be in the form of a ball which is being crushed or squished
> by the hook as it rotates ...otherwise there's a danger of a tearing
> action developing if the dough sticks to the sides of the bowl while
> the hook is rotating with a small partial doughball clinging to it.
>
> I just can't believe that this isn't happening to anyone else. What do
> you do about it? I even tried to add flour to the sides of the bowl in
> an attempt to keep it at the ball stage but when it gets to 40% over
> the recipe I figured I didn't want to go any further.
>
> Patrick
>

Why do you believe that the dough has to form a complete ball and clean
the bowl? Is the bread you are getting unsatisfactory?


--
Del Cecchi
"This post is my own and doesn’t necessarily represent IBM’s positions,
strategies or opinions.”

> wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> The bread I'm getting is quite good but remember I'm a newbie so I
> don't claim to be able to judge whether it's a good as it reasonably
> should be.
>
> The reason I believe it should form a complete ball is that I believe
> I'm getting excessive sticking (ie. much of the entire mass of the
> dough -up to a level of about 3" in the bowl- is sticking ...that's
> alot of surface area). I believe that what I'm seeing is a
> considerable amount of tearing of the dough and it's this tearing that
> I'm really concerned about rather than an absence of a ball-shape.
> It's my understanding that proper kneading implies that there be little
> or no tearing.

One thing that I have observed here is that people get upset about the
smallest things. Sometimes it is good to look around and see that people
are starving, there are several wars going on, and our government seems to
think it is fine to torture people. If your bread tastes good, don't worry
about "tearing." It's bread after all, not rocket science.

"Vox Humana" > wrote in message
. ..
>
> > wrote in message
> oups.com...
>>
>> The bread I'm getting is quite good but remember I'm a newbie so I
>> don't claim to be able to judge whether it's a good as it reasonably
>> should be.
>>
>> The reason I believe it should form a complete ball is that I believe
>> I'm getting excessive sticking (ie. much of the entire mass of the
>> dough -up to a level of about 3" in the bowl- is sticking ...that's
>> alot of surface area). I believe that what I'm seeing is a
>> considerable amount of tearing of the dough and it's this tearing that
>> I'm really concerned about rather than an absence of a ball-shape.
>> It's my understanding that proper kneading implies that there be little
>> or no tearing.
>
> One thing that I have observed here is that people get upset about the
> smallest things. Sometimes it is good to look around and see that people
> are starving, there are several wars going on, and our government seems to
> think it is fine to torture people. If your bread tastes good, don't
> worry about "tearing." It's bread after all, not rocket science.
Sanity, at last!
Graham

>I believe that what I'm seeing is a
>considerable amount of tearing of the dough and it's this tearing that
>I'm really concerned about rather than an absence of a ball-shape.
>It's my understanding that proper kneading implies that there be little
>or no tearing.

Keep it in mind....a firm dough will likely tear than a softer one....
Regardless if you are using a mixer or kneading it vigorously with your
hand.