Hello,
I don't usually post here but I'm hoping someone can help. I have a
recipe for chocolate, cream cheese filled cupcakes and I forgot to buy the
vinegar needed! It only calls for a table spoon of vinegar. I'm not
usually one to bake from scratch, but I do from time to time. This recipe
is completely from scratch. How necessary is the vinegar? What is it's
purpose and is there something I could substitute? Thanks!

Beth

Beth wrote:

> Hello,
> I don't usually post here but I'm hoping someone can help. I have a
> recipe for chocolate, cream cheese filled cupcakes and I forgot to buy the
> vinegar needed! It only calls for a table spoon of vinegar. I'm not
> usually one to bake from scratch, but I do from time to time. This recipe
> is completely from scratch. How necessary is the vinegar? What is it's
> purpose and is there something I could substitute? Thanks!

Sounds like it's there to increase the acidity. You could also
try lemon juice.

In any case, if it's only one T I think you're safe
leaving it out.

--
Reg email: RegForte (at) (that free MS email service) (dot) com

"Reg" > wrote in message
m...
> Beth wrote:
>
>> Hello,
>> I don't usually post here but I'm hoping someone can help. I
>> have a recipe for chocolate, cream cheese filled cupcakes and I forgot to
>> buy the vinegar needed! It only calls for a table spoon of vinegar. I'm
>> not usually one to bake from scratch, but I do from time to time. This
>> recipe is completely from scratch. How necessary is the vinegar? What
>> is it's purpose and is there something I could substitute? Thanks!
>
> Sounds like it's there to increase the acidity. You could also
> try lemon juice.
>
> In any case, if it's only one T I think you're safe
> leaving it out.
>
> --
> Reg email: RegForte (at) (that free MS email service) (dot) com
>

Thanks!! I am really dying for some chocolate right now but not enough to
make a trip to the store for vinegar!

"Beth" > wrote in message
. com...
>
> "Reg" > wrote in message
> m...
>> Beth wrote:
>>
>>> Hello,
>>> I don't usually post here but I'm hoping someone can help. I
>>> have a recipe for chocolate, cream cheese filled cupcakes and I forgot
>>> to buy the vinegar needed! It only calls for a table spoon of vinegar.
>>> I'm not usually one to bake from scratch, but I do from time to time.
>>> This recipe is completely from scratch. How necessary is the vinegar?
>>> What is it's purpose and is there something I could substitute? Thanks!
>>
>> Sounds like it's there to increase the acidity. You could also
>> try lemon juice.
>>
>> In any case, if it's only one T I think you're safe
>> leaving it out.
>>

If the leavening agent in your recipe is baking soda, then you probably need
the vinegar. Decreasing the pH will reducing browning and increase
tenderness, but I bet that it is there to react with the baking soda. If
the leavening agent is baking powder only, then you will probably be OK.

"Vox Humana" > wrote in message
. ..
>
> "Beth" > wrote in message
> . com...
>>
>> "Reg" > wrote in message
>> m...
>>> Beth wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hello,
>>>> I don't usually post here but I'm hoping someone can help. I
>>>> have a recipe for chocolate, cream cheese filled cupcakes and I forgot
>>>> to buy the vinegar needed! It only calls for a table spoon of vinegar.
>>>> I'm not usually one to bake from scratch, but I do from time to time.
>>>> This recipe is completely from scratch. How necessary is the vinegar?
>>>> What is it's purpose and is there something I could substitute?
>>>> Thanks!
>>>
>>> Sounds like it's there to increase the acidity. You could also
>>> try lemon juice.
>>>
>>> In any case, if it's only one T I think you're safe
>>> leaving it out.
>>>
>
> If the leavening agent in your recipe is baking soda, then you probably
> need the vinegar. Decreasing the pH will reducing browning and increase
> tenderness, but I bet that it is there to react with the baking soda. If
> the leavening agent is baking powder only, then you will probably be OK.
>It is baking powder. Whew! Thanks!

"Beth" > wrote in message
. com...
>
> "Vox Humana" > wrote in message
> . ..
>>
>> "Beth" > wrote in message
>> . com...
>>>
>>> "Reg" > wrote in message
>>> m...
>>>> Beth wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hello,
>>>>> I don't usually post here but I'm hoping someone can help. I
>>>>> have a recipe for chocolate, cream cheese filled cupcakes and I forgot
>>>>> to buy the vinegar needed! It only calls for a table spoon of
>>>>> vinegar. I'm not usually one to bake from scratch, but I do from time
>>>>> to time. This recipe is completely from scratch. How necessary is the
>>>>> vinegar? What is it's purpose and is there something I could
>>>>> substitute? Thanks!
>>>>
>>>> Sounds like it's there to increase the acidity. You could also
>>>> try lemon juice.
>>>>
>>>> In any case, if it's only one T I think you're safe
>>>> leaving it out.
>>>>
>>
>> If the leavening agent in your recipe is baking soda, then you probably
>> need the vinegar. Decreasing the pH will reducing browning and increase
>> tenderness, but I bet that it is there to react with the baking soda. If
>> the leavening agent is baking powder only, then you will probably be OK.
>>It is baking powder. Whew! Thanks!
>
>
Question...If it hadn't been baking powder for my recipe, but instead it had
been baking soda, could I have changed the baking soda for baking powder and
just not worried about the vinegar? What's the difference? Thanks! I love
the quick response to comments I'm learning something here!
Beth

"Beth" > wrote in message
news
> Question...If it hadn't been baking powder for my recipe, but instead it
> had
> been baking soda, could I have changed the baking soda for baking powder
> and
> just not worried about the vinegar? What's the difference? Thanks! I
> love
> the quick response to comments I'm learning something here!
> Beth

Baking powder is baking soda with one or more acids added. In single-acting
baking powder, there is one acid that dissolved at room temperature when
liquid is added and the reaction between acid and the baking soda begins
immediately. In double-acting baking powder, there are two acids. One that
dissolves and reacts immediately at room temperature, and one that dissolves
at a higher temperature (in the oven) producing a second increment of CO2.
You don't need to have any acidic ingredients when you use baking powder.

Baking soda requires an acid. That is usually found in an ingredient like
vinegar, citrus juice, buttermilk, fruit puree, chocolate, molasses, or
brown sugar. The reaction begins immediately when the ingredients are
combined. When using baking soda or single-acting baking powder, it is
important to get the product into the oven immediately do the leavening
agent doesn't exhaust itself before the item is baked. Double-acting baking
powder is more forgiving as the second acid doesn't start to dissolve and
react until the product is in the oven.

The general rule is that you need 1/4 tsp. of baking soda per cup of flour
or 1 tsp. of baking powder per cup of flour. So if you are going to make
the substitution, you would exchange 1 tsp. of BP for each 1/2 tsp. of BS
and visa versa. Sometimes you will see both BP and BS in recipes. The
addition of the BS could be to neutralize an acid ingredient or to change
the pH of the product to influence browning or texture.

"Vox Humana" > wrote in message
. ..
>
> "Beth" > wrote in message
> news >
>> Question...If it hadn't been baking powder for my recipe, but instead it
>> had
>> been baking soda, could I have changed the baking soda for baking powder
>> and
>> just not worried about the vinegar? What's the difference? Thanks! I
>> love
>> the quick response to comments I'm learning something here!
>> Beth
>
> Baking powder is baking soda with one or more acids added. In
> single-acting baking powder, there is one acid that dissolved at room
> temperature when liquid is added and the reaction between acid and the
> baking soda begins immediately. In double-acting baking powder, there are
> two acids. One that dissolves and reacts immediately at room temperature,
> and one that dissolves at a higher temperature (in the oven) producing a
> second increment of CO2. You don't need to have any acidic ingredients
> when you use baking powder.
>
> Baking soda requires an acid. That is usually found in an ingredient like
> vinegar, citrus juice, buttermilk, fruit puree, chocolate, molasses, or
> brown sugar. The reaction begins immediately when the ingredients are
> combined. When using baking soda or single-acting baking powder, it is
> important to get the product into the oven immediately do the leavening
> agent doesn't exhaust itself before the item is baked. Double-acting
> baking powder is more forgiving as the second acid doesn't start to
> dissolve and react until the product is in the oven.
>
> The general rule is that you need 1/4 tsp. of baking soda per cup of flour
> or 1 tsp. of baking powder per cup of flour. So if you are going to make
> the substitution, you would exchange 1 tsp. of BP for each 1/2 tsp. of BS
> and visa versa. Sometimes you will see both BP and BS in recipes. The
> addition of the BS could be to neutralize an acid ingredient or to change
> the pH of the product to influence browning or texture.
>

I wrote: "you would exchange 1 tsp. of BP for each 1/2 tsp of BS."

I meant "you would exchange 1 tsp. of BP for each 1/4 tsp of BS"

On Sun, 29 Jan 2006 23:33:00 GMT, "Beth" >
wrote:

>Hello,
> This recipe
>is completely from scratch. How necessary is the vinegar? What is it's
>purpose and is there something I could substitute? Thanks!


Beth...you need to find a new hobby......baking is not your forte.

"Ward Abbott" > wrote in message
...
> On Sun, 29 Jan 2006 23:33:00 GMT, "Beth" >
> wrote:
>
>>Hello,
>> This recipe
>>is completely from scratch. How necessary is the vinegar? What is it's
>>purpose and is there something I could substitute? Thanks!
>
>
> Beth...you need to find a new hobby......baking is not your forte.
>
Hey now! I have many great hobbies but I like to get new ones! Isn't it a
good trait that I want to learn how to do it without a box mix?!?!

On Mon, 30 Jan 2006 02:59:36 GMT, "Beth" >
wrote:

>Hey now! I have many great hobbies but I like to get new ones! Isn't it a
>good trait that I want to learn how to do it without a box mix?!?!

I would defy you to be able to tell the difference between a "scratch"
cake and a Duncan Hines Deluxe mix. You would choose the Duncan
Hines mix.

Vinegar is acid. Lemon or lime juice would be an acceptable
substitute in a pinch. A small bottle of vinegar would be essential
in any kitchen from making a quick vinaigrette to cleaning a crystal
vase.

Whoa dude! Aren't we a bit testy?? She asked a legitimate question & you
have to be an asshole??

WTF?? It's people like you that keep people like her away from newsgroups
like this.

My parents were very fond of a saying: "If you can't say something nice,
don't say anything at all."

Shame on you...



"Ward Abbott" > wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 30 Jan 2006 02:59:36 GMT, "Beth" >
> wrote:
>
>>Hey now! I have many great hobbies but I like to get new ones! Isn't it a
>>good trait that I want to learn how to do it without a box mix?!?!
>
> I would defy you to be able to tell the difference between a "scratch"
> cake and a Duncan Hines Deluxe mix. You would choose the Duncan
> Hines mix.
>
> Vinegar is acid. Lemon or lime juice would be an acceptable
> substitute in a pinch. A small bottle of vinegar would be essential
> in any kitchen from making a quick vinaigrette to cleaning a crystal
> vase.
>
>
>
>

Ward Abbott wrote:
> On Mon, 30 Jan 2006 02:59:36 GMT, "Beth" >
> wrote:
>
>>Hey now! I have many great hobbies but I like to get new ones! Isn't it a
>>good trait that I want to learn how to do it without a box mix?!?!
>
> I would defy you to be able to tell the difference between a "scratch"
> cake and a Duncan Hines Deluxe mix. You would choose the Duncan
> Hines mix.

We used to do cakes in my restaurants, for banquet customers. We
discovered early on that if you asked people what they wanted, it was
almost always a cake from scratch. But if you let them taste side by
side, they almost always chose the box mix. They're more intensely
flavored, sweeter, and more moist because of all the extra chemicals and
humectants they put into them. They have more - new word - "cakeness" to
them. Same principle as, if two are good, four are better.

> Vinegar is acid. Lemon or lime juice would be an acceptable
> substitute in a pinch. A small bottle of vinegar would be essential
> in any kitchen from making a quick vinaigrette to cleaning a crystal
> vase.

Exactly.

Pastorio

Lisa wrote:

> Whoa dude! Aren't we a bit testy?? She asked a legitimate question & you
> have to be an asshole??
>
> WTF?? It's people like you that keep people like her away from newsgroups
> like this.
>
> My parents were very fond of a saying: "If you can't say something nice,
> don't say anything at all."

Have you said something nice...?

Pastorio


>
> Shame on you...
>
>
>
> "Ward Abbott" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>On Mon, 30 Jan 2006 02:59:36 GMT, "Beth" >
>>wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Hey now! I have many great hobbies but I like to get new ones! Isn't it a
>>>good trait that I want to learn how to do it without a box mix?!?!
>>
>>I would defy you to be able to tell the difference between a "scratch"
>>cake and a Duncan Hines Deluxe mix. You would choose the Duncan
>>Hines mix.
>>
>>Vinegar is acid. Lemon or lime juice would be an acceptable
>>substitute in a pinch. A small bottle of vinegar would be essential
>>in any kitchen from making a quick vinaigrette to cleaning a crystal
>>vase.

Bob (this one) wrote:
> Ward Abbott wrote:
> > On Mon, 30 Jan 2006 02:59:36 GMT, "Beth" >
> > wrote:
> >
> >>Hey now! I have many great hobbies but I like to get new ones! Isn't it a
> >>good trait that I want to learn how to do it without a box mix?!?!
> >
> > I would defy you to be able to tell the difference between a "scratch"
> > cake and a Duncan Hines Deluxe mix. You would choose the Duncan
> > Hines mix.
>
> We used to do cakes in my restaurants, for banquet customers. We
> discovered early on that if you asked people what they wanted, it was
> almost always a cake from scratch. But if you let them taste side by
> side, they almost always chose the box mix. <snip>

But what about people ;like myself, who prefer to make it from scratch
largely so they are NOT eating all the chemical, preservative,
unpronouncable powdered junk. I cook becasue I want to know - and be
able to pronounce - every single ingredient that goes into what I eat.
Andthat don't happen with a box mix.

On Mon, 30 Jan 2006 13:57:07 GMT, "Lisa" > wrote:

>My parents were very fond of a saying:

Truth if brutal.....but there is something about that heat in the
kitchen <vbg>

Beth wrote:

.. I'll have you
> know that the cupcakes I made, which had nothing from a mix, turned out
> moist and delicious. I mixed up some flour, cocoa powder, baking powder,
> sugar, eggs, cream cheese, oil, water, chocolate chips and vanilla to make
> some great chocolate cupcakes with cream cheese and chocolate chip filling
> and the filling didn't even come through the top! I think that's pretty
> good for a novice!

So, will you post the recipe for the rest of us who would rathewr bake
scratch cupcakes than boxed mixes, please?

"Ward Abbott" > wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 30 Jan 2006 02:59:36 GMT, "Beth" >
> wrote:
>
>>Hey now! I have many great hobbies but I like to get new ones! Isn't it a
>>good trait that I want to learn how to do it without a box mix?!?!
>
> I would defy you to be able to tell the difference between a "scratch"
> cake and a Duncan Hines Deluxe mix. You would choose the Duncan
> Hines mix.
>
> Vinegar is acid. Lemon or lime juice would be an acceptable
> substitute in a pinch. A small bottle of vinegar would be essential
> in any kitchen from making a quick vinaigrette to cleaning a crystal
> vase.

Chill out!! I think I can tell that if I get a box mix and make it it's not
scratch. However, if I mix some flour and sugar and whatever else is
required, then I'm pretty sure that's from scratch. I know what vinegar is
you moron. I just didn't know the point of it in a baking recipe. So
what...I've never had the need or desire to learn to bake from scratch
before now. Now that I picked up the habit of getting from scratch recipes
only a couple months ago I can't bake because I don't know how vinegar
reacts with baking soda?!?!? That's insane. I'm a single 25 year old
living in a metropolitan area where I can order pretty much anything I want
until 3 am. I didn't need to know how to make anything that didn't involve
a box! But now that I've decided I like to try new things I'm being
chastised by some internet baking Nazi. I don't think so. I'll have you
know that the cupcakes I made, which had nothing from a mix, turned out
moist and delicious. I mixed up some flour, cocoa powder, baking powder,
sugar, eggs, cream cheese, oil, water, chocolate chips and vanilla to make
some great chocolate cupcakes with cream cheese and chocolate chip filling
and the filling didn't even come through the top! I think that's pretty
good for a novice! And you're rude comments will not keep me out of the
kitchen. Thanks to those who replied so quickly!! I look forward to more
questions being answered by the kinder people here. As for the person who
has nothing better to do than to be rude, well, let's just say I have no
need for rude people and will now be adding that person to my blocked email
list.
Beth

Jude wrote:
> Bob (this one) wrote:
>
>>Ward Abbott wrote:
>>
>>>On Mon, 30 Jan 2006 02:59:36 GMT, "Beth" >
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Hey now! I have many great hobbies but I like to get new ones! Isn't it a
>>>>good trait that I want to learn how to do it without a box mix?!?!
>>>
>>>I would defy you to be able to tell the difference between a "scratch"
>>>cake and a Duncan Hines Deluxe mix. You would choose the Duncan
>>>Hines mix.
>>
>>We used to do cakes in my restaurants, for banquet customers. We
>>discovered early on that if you asked people what they wanted, it was
>>almost always a cake from scratch. But if you let them taste side by
>>side, they almost always chose the box mix. <snip>
>
>
> But what about people like myself, who prefer to make it from scratch
> largely so they are NOT eating all the chemical, preservative,
> unpronouncable powdered junk. I cook becasue I want to know - and be
> able to pronounce - every single ingredient that goes into what I eat.
> Andthat don't happen with a box mix.

Agreed. Reasonable position. To each his own...

Pastorio

>But what about people ;like myself, who prefer to make it from scratch
>largely so they are NOT eating all the chemical, preservative,
>unpronouncable powdered junk. I cook becasue I want to know - and be
>able to pronounce - every single ingredient that goes into what I eat.
>Andthat don't happen with a box mix.

I think what is needed here is some storytelling and familiarization
....<grin>..

Jude wrote:

That reminds me of an anecdote about a baker who hates industrial cakes
as its loaded with chemical.s..
Some years back I came into conversation with a cake baker in his baker
who incidentally during shop talk kept complaining that cakes made by
specialist cake manufacturers are bad....as they are loaded with
chemicals
Out of curiosity...
I ask him what are those chemicals in particular,,, present in those
cakes that you don't like.......?
He said acid sodium pyrophosphate, monocalcium phosphate monohydrate
and sodium bicarbonate....I told them you are also using them in your
cakes....
He was surprised.....and challenged me..to prove that he is doing so...
I grabbed a pail of his double acting baking powder...present in his
ingredient shelf...
I asked him, is this your favorite baking powder..?
The baker answered.proudly ...Yes I have been using that brand for more
than 10 years!

I said...Would you please Read aloud the ingredient composition...?
As he read the ingredients his face became red in shame that he was
barely unable to finish reading the ingredients which was identical to
the ingredients I mentioned above..


In the same line you may be intimidated by the ingredients list...but
all of those ingredients are added for functional reason..
..I know as I worked in that line for many years...in the food research
lab developing related prepared mixes.. for home and institutional
users...

The reason that people are intimidated by it is they don't understand
what is for....
You may see in the cake mix box these things,,,

Leavening
sodium aluminum phosphate, dicalcium phosphate dehydrate along with
the ingredients I mentioned above....but that is synonymous with high
performance tailored double acting baking powder..!..

Partially hydrogenated vegetable oil,,,,but that is the common
shortening.!
You may see bleached and enriched flour ( thiamine mononitrate,
niacin,....etc...but those are present in the enriched flour you buy
in the supermarket for home baking!

Emulsifiers
but that is perfectly safe ingredient and so far in many animal feeding
studies it was perfectly safe....another mono and diglycerides of fatty
acids...but .that is present in your common vegetable shortening such
as Crisco...
These other things that is uncommon are the propylene glycol mono and
diester of fatty acids, polyglycerol esters ,polysorbate 60,,,those
emulsifiers are not common as they are not available over the
counter...but is used in other foodstuff such as whipped toppings,
mousses...even ins some ice cream etc....
Lecithin....that is present in egg yolk and soybeans

Stabilizers
Cellulose gum which is sodium carboxymethylcellulose but that is used
in making certain moldable fondant icing.... and commonly added as
stabilizer in many beverages..
Guar gum...is a natural gum along with Xanthan gum...which can be
found in ketchup and condiments and sauces as stabilizer..
Modified starch-corn starch....this ingredients is ubiquitous in many
bottled sauces, pudding mixes, etc...

There might be some exceptions on ingredients lists which are
difficult to remove the sinister reputations such as what is present
in the commonly used colorant in cake mixes... Colors, such as
tartrazine, sunset yellow etc.. these things are recently causing
concern ...due to perceived cumulative effect,and also t that some of
these coal tar dyes can promote allergy and hyperactivity....in certain
individuals..
But that is changing due also to continuously evolving food
laws...many food mixes formulators are going natural by using naturally
derived colors instead such as combining bixin (from annatto), ,and
curcumin( from turmeric) to replace tartazine and sunset yellow.


But preservatives...AFAIK... cake mix formulators and manufacturers
don't add preservatives as the cakes made from the boxed mixes are
expected to be consumed soon as its baked....

Finally the most interesting part of cake mixes is the superior
moistness and tenderness is the result of the functional synergism of
the ingredients, the emulsifier and stabilizers I mentioned...which
are difficult to duplicate with ingredients you can find your cupboard
or in the supermarket shelves for baking ingredients .

Therefore not being able to pronounce those ingredients does not mean
that they are all notorious and have no reason for being there....but
bear in mind....a cake formulation can be interpreted from different
perspective ....
From the standpoint of a home cook and ordinary baker is just flour,
sugar ,eggs, water, baking powder and flavor....
But from the formulator in the food science lab....flour can be
dissected into its basic components and how its processed such as
bleached , enriched, to a pH and protein of a certain value...
Sugar is granulated to a certain particle size..
Other ingredients can follow suit with precise
specifications...required.
..
It is sheer ignorance in the point of a consumer who can't comprehend
those special components . why its there.... and ego or course....as
the reason for their hatred for cake mixes...

They believed that they can make better cakes than the box mixes...with
just simple ingredients when that far from the truth..
Comparison wise...I still have to see a homebaker who can duplicate
the baking performance and quality of cake mixes... with scratch
recipes....
Some of their complaints are reasonable such as
They say that some cake mixes are weak...and easy to crumble ....but
that can be modified by altering your cake making methods...and the
modification of the make up ingredients.

keep it up Beth. Baking from scratch is much more satisfying that from a
box. It also isn't all that difficult. It just takes practice. Who made
Ward god anyway? wendy
----- Original Message -----
From: "Beth" >
Newsgroups: rec.food.baking
To: >
Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2006 9:59 PM
Subject: Vinegar in baking question


>
> "Ward Abbott" > wrote in message
> ...
> > On Sun, 29 Jan 2006 23:33:00 GMT, "Beth" >
> > wrote:
> >
> >>Hello,
> >> This recipe
> >>is completely from scratch. How necessary is the vinegar? What is it's
> >>purpose and is there something I could substitute? Thanks!
> >
> >
> > Beth...you need to find a new hobby......baking is not your forte.
> >
> Hey now! I have many great hobbies but I like to get new ones! Isn't it a
> good trait that I want to learn how to do it without a box mix?!?!
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Rec.food.baking mailing list
>
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>
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then reply to the confirmation request.
>
>
> --
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>
>

In article >,
Ward Abbott > wrote:
= On Sun, 29 Jan 2006 23:33:00 GMT, "Beth" >
= wrote:
=
= >Hello,
= > This recipe
= >is completely from scratch. How necessary is the vinegar? What is it's
= >purpose and is there something I could substitute? Thanks!
=
=
= Beth...you need to find a new hobby......baking is not your forte.

And just what business of yours is her choice of hobby?

If you don't want to help, don't -- but there's no need to be
gratuitously nasty. Even if you were whelped knowing all there is
to know about cooking, baking, or anything else, doesn't mean that
everyone is or should be.

Doesn't your news reader have a command or a button to skip articles
you don't like? Better yet, get a news reader with kill-file
capability and put authors of such articles in said file and you'll
never see another post from them. But then that would spoil all
your fun, wouldn't it?


--
Charlie Sorsby

Edgewood, NM 87015
USA