I'm confused about something. Why does fat and sugar in breads make them
more tender but in cookies make them more crispy? Seems backwards. I've
been reducing the fat and sugar content for hard rolls but they don't get
hard. Am I going in the wrong direction?

>I'm confused about something. Why does fat and sugar in breads make them
>more tender but in cookies make them more crispy? Seems backwards. I've
>been reducing the fat and sugar content for hard rolls but they don't get
..>hard. Am I going in the wrong direction?

There is no point in comparing the ingredient performance in some
different products due to the fact that the usage rate is also
different.

Bread dough structure is different from cookie dough

In the bread dough the flour is optimally hydrated but not in cookie
dough

In the bread dough the sugar comes into solution but not in the cookie
dough where its a large part of it is still intact admixed with
unhydrated flour.

What makes the cookie crispier is the presence of undissolved sugars
admixed with un hydrated flour which is loosely bound by the minimal
gluten formed from incomplete flour hydration.
Due to The lesser amount of moisture in cookies makes it dry faster
during the baking process promoting crispier texture

"chembake" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> There is no point in comparing the ingredient performance in some
> different products due to the fact that the usage rate is also
> different.
>
> Bread dough structure is different from cookie dough
>
> In the bread dough the flour is optimally hydrated but not in cookie
> dough
>
> In the bread dough the sugar comes into solution but not in the cookie
> dough where its a large part of it is still intact admixed with
> unhydrated flour.
>
> What makes the cookie crispier is the presence of undissolved sugars
> admixed with un hydrated flour which is loosely bound by the minimal
> gluten formed from incomplete flour hydration.
> Due to The lesser amount of moisture in cookies makes it dry faster
> during the baking process promoting crispier texture

Excellent explanation! My baking instructor couldn't give any kind of
answer other than, "It's the formula." Your answer was scientific, and
that's the kind of education I want to get, but I don't think I'm going to
get it at school. I'll have to get some of the more advanced books that are
available.

Thank you very much. ?

Rich Hollenbeck

Sugar in cookies, at least the sugar in 'crisp' cookies most definitely comes into solution. The sensation of a crisp cookie does not come from the sandy texture of undissolved sugar. The heat that crisp cookies are baked at is sufficient enough to dissolve the sugar, evaporate water and glass the sugar into an amorphous solid. It is this hard candy like solid that gives crispy cookies their texture.

The hydration of the flour doesn't play a role in the crispiness of cookies. If this was true than a dough left in the refrigerator overnight (i.e. fully hydrated) wouldn't be less crispy than a dough bake immediately. This is not the case.

A low water environment certainly plays a case in the glassing of the sugar solution, but it's enough water to hydrate the flour fully.

Fat doesn't add structure/crispiness to cookies. Fat, regardless of the application, get's in the way of protein fibers attempting to bond and creates tenderness. The more fat, the less structural integrity there will be in the finished product.

The differences caused by sugar in these two scenarios relates to quantity. Small amounts of sugar in bread will, just like fat, get in the way of protein fibers and create tenderness. Once you hit the quantity of sugar in cookies, though, the sugar takes on a structure of it's own and provides chewiness/crispiness.

In what way are your rolls not hard enough? Is the crumb too squishy? The crust not crispy? The crust not chewy?

You may not be backing off on the fat/sugar enough. You also might be underdeveloping the gluten by insufficient kneading. What recipe are you using? You also might be using flour that isn't strong enough. Try a higher protein flour.

scott123 wrote:

>
> Sugar in cookies, at least the sugar in 'crisp' cookies most definitely
> comes into solution.

I doubt about that it applies to all cookies and many of them vary in
the amount moisturizing agent added.

The melting and recrystallization of the sugars is a major factor of
crispiness( its unfortunate that I missed that in my abbreviated
early explanation) but that can be modified by the type of flour as
well as the fat content..

Take note not all the sugars comes into solution as some of the sugar
granules are bound by the gluten.

Cookie texture by the way is influenced by the formulation and not all
cookie are crisp.
Textured.

.. The sensation of a crisp cookie does not come from
 the sandy texture of undissolved sugar.

To consider that all the sugars can be dissolved in water in which the
flour gluten .competes with the sugar( for the water) is not absolutely
true

>The heat that crisp cookies are
> baked at is sufficient enough to dissolve the sugar, evaporate water and
> glass the sugar into an amorphous solid. It is this hard candy like
> solid that gives crispy cookies their texture.

> The hydration of the flour doesn't play a role in the crispiness of
> cookies.

This led to a question€¦ How about the use of slightly higher gluten
flours that tends to affect the crispiness as well? If the flour is not
partly hydrated then how did it happen that such flours used in some
cookie recipes tend to make it more crispy textured than normal cookie
flour.?
The degree of snap by done by compression test confirms that a
cookie flour that has slightly higher protein than the normal cookie
flour can influence it by increasing the crispness.
If the cookie flour is slightly diluted with starch the crispiness is
reduced also...
But too much flour protein can significantly reduce the snap due to
the toughening effect.

Therefore to consider sugar as the absolute reason for crispiness is
not true. It can be influenced by other ingredients as well.



> A low water environment certainly plays a case in the glassing of the
> sugar solution, but it's enough water to hydrate the flour fully.

There are certain cookie in other countries somewhat related to the
short dough that does not have added water in it but just the limited
amount of eggs put in the mix.
Now the egg is approximately 75% water and having the binding effect
of albumen that may prevent the water in it from completely imbibed by
the sugar and the flour.
How can you ascertain that such liquid added is enough to hydrate the
flour.?
If you knead the dough by hand you will see that there is not much
gluten formation.
(Or even by spindle mixing there is still not enough water to
completely hydrate the flour.)
And you can feel that there is no coherence in some freshly mixed
cookie dough

Looking it under the microscope confirms it that there are plenty of
the called flour wedge protein( which the gluten emanates) is intact
..
Another thing also if you compare the hydration of the bread dough and
the cookie dough under a powerful microscope the degree of formation of
gluten fibrils that is ejected from the protein particles is not so
extensive in the cookie dough if compared to the bread dough as there
is competition for the available moisture between flour and other
significant quantities soluble ingredients in the cookie formula.

In addition to that many cookies are not baked a higher temperature
that occurs in the oven band where here there are different heat zones
that vary in temperature that can influence the so called heat induced
dissolution of sugars.
Some of the home made cookies in other countries are baked at just
175 degree C just until the cookie spreads and is then taken out to
cool. You can feel the sandiness and the crispness depending on the
cookie formulation (and the method used in making it) at the same time
when you taste the cookies later on.

Again if you look a cookie in the microscope there are portions of
sugar granules that looks intact..Setting aside the glassy formation
due to melted and recrystallized sugar which are coarser this means not
all sugar comes into dissolution during the baking process. The slight
amount of gluten can entrap this fine sugar granules preventing it from
being melted together with the bulk of the sugars that is mainly
responsible for the glassines or crispiness

Crispness is not only a function of the sugar melting and
recrystallization but is influenced by other ingredients in the cookie
as well.

chembake wrote:

> There are certain cookie in other countries somewhat related to the
> short dough that does not have added water in it but just the limited
> amount of eggs put in the mix.

Or a Scots shortbread, with nothing but the 20% (+/-?) water in the butter!

Dave