Hi,

Before I moved down here (Metairie, LA, a suburb of New Orleans), I
only used my kitchen to store Coca-Cola and OJ. But after moving, I
discovered that my immediate area had no good bread and I am used to
GOOD bread (moved from New York City). So I began to MAKE MY OWN!!!!!
Now I spend a good deal of time in the kitchen, not only to make bread!

Ever since I started I have had the same problem, which I am sure would
be solved if only I had a baker to watch what I do. I make my bread
totally by hand, no bread machine or mixer.

But my problem is a) my bread is too dense (not airy or light enough)
or b) my bread is flatter than it ought to be. Also, the top never
loks anything like the light-golden brown I see on good bread.

I have bene told that I let my 2nd rise go too long and that it's HUMID
doen here and to use less water.

HELP!!!

On 14 Feb 2006 12:17:13 -0800, wrote:

>Hi,
>
>Before I moved down here (Metairie, LA, a suburb of New Orleans), I
>only used my kitchen to store Coca-Cola and OJ. But after moving, I
>discovered that my immediate area had no good bread and I am used to
>GOOD bread (moved from New York City). So I began to MAKE MY OWN!!!!!
>Now I spend a good deal of time in the kitchen, not only to make bread!
>
>Ever since I started I have had the same problem, which I am sure would
>be solved if only I had a baker to watch what I do. I make my bread
>totally by hand, no bread machine or mixer.
>
>But my problem is a) my bread is too dense (not airy or light enough)
>or b) my bread is flatter than it ought to be. Also, the top never
>loks anything like the light-golden brown I see on good bread.
>
>I have bene told that I let my 2nd rise go too long and that it's HUMID
>doen here and to use less water.
>
>HELP!!!


Why not post this, along with your recipe and technique over at
alt.bread.recipes. That is where all the bread bakers hang out.

You will have lots of folks willing to offer advice, but posting your
recipe and how you are handling/making it will provide a lot of info.

Boron

>But my problem is a) my bread is too dense (not airy or light enough)
>or

As there is no recipe to look see initially these are my comments:

If the bread is dense, there are many factors that can cause it, among
a


The flour used likely has lower in gluten( common in southern
states,where the all purpose has lower protein content that what is
usually available in northern states

Are you thoroughly familiar with hand kneading and the required end
point when to stop?

Did you ferment the dough properly and have it knocked back then
letting it rise again?


Did you use the right amount of yeast?

b) my bread is flatter than it ought to be. Also, the top never
>loks anything like the light-golden brown I see on good bread.

A dough that is fermented for a short time before being divided and
molded results in a young dough that led to flattish appearing bread.


>I have bene told that I let my 2nd rise go too long and that it's HUMID
doen here and to use less water.

If what you mean by second rise is the proofing, yes if its allowed to
stay longer than required the bread will also appear flattish looking(
called in bakery parlance as overproofed dough which results with pale
crust).

This can be improved by baking at higher temperature to force the dough
to kick start the dough expansion.

IMO humidity is not the issue here, as its needed by the dough to keep
the proofing even and no crust drying will occur.
What you have to look for is the fermentation time. If the dough
appears flattish then you have to reduce the proofing time and use the
finger indent test to see if your dough is properly risen:
If when pushed gently with finger tips the dough springs back
immediately, it needs more rising time
Whereas if the indentation remains in the dough, its already on the way
to overproofing
A properly proofed dough when gently pressed with finger will gradually
springs back the indentation.
If it happens that the risen dough tends to decrease in volume when
pressed, its already overproofed,

BTW, just like what Boron suggested if you can show the recipe with
the procedure many people can pitch in and give yuo valuable
suggestion.

Thank you Chembake, I will try to apply your thinking the next times I
make bread.

My problem with placing a recipe is I have used 4 recipes from 3
different books and they all have the same problems. It is either my
location, my oven or me. I suspect it's ME. While I think I am doing
what I ought to, I have no one watching to interrupt with "you moron,
don't do THAT! The recipe doesn't say THAT!"

Thanks again,

David

Hi Chembake,

Thanks for your patience.

Here is the recipe I use most often.
http://www.davidkabraham.com/my%20bread%20recipe.htm

Click on the thumbnail photos so that you can read the recipes.

David

Thanks in advance

Hi David
David
>The following recipe is one of several recipes I have followed to make my >own bread. But it is the recipe I have used most >often. Keep in mind: I have >neither bread machine nor dough mixer; I use muscle power.
>My problem is that my bread is always {heavier / more dense / less filled with >holes / smaller holed / less tall} than it ought >to be This is especially true of bread I bake on a cookie sheet rather than in a >loaf pan; it spreads rather than rises, but >even my loaf bread rises >inadequately.


You are following the standards of the British Bread baking.Their kind
of breads are supposed to be heavier than American type breads of the
same genre. One major factor is that British flour has slightly lower
gluten content that typical American breadmaking flours.

The recipe looks okay...but the way you are making it maybe what makes
the difference.
First...did you knead the dough until fully developed...? really
smooth? Following the timing is not enough....people have different
physical fitness and the kneading process can affected by that
also...An underdeveloped dough can lead to heavier loaves with lesser
volume.
Did it pass the window pane test?

Is the dough wet appearing...or slack. If that is that way then its you
have to reduce your water content slightly.
A firmer dough is not likely to flatten out during rising.
Did you mold your bread tightly... ? that is a factor that can
influence the bread to flatten during proofing....which is the result
of loose molding.It takes some time to be proficient in bread molding.

>The taste is OK and the crust is chewy (too chewy) but the bread is not as light as professional bread

What is your basis for the so called professional bread..? It is the
one you can buy from nearby supermarket...? or from specialty artisanal
bakeries...?
If you are looking for the former then you will have difficulty in
getting it to rise to the lightness....These folks are using additives
to enhance the bread volume....
Meanwhile artisanal breads are not necessarily light nor
heavy....however it depends upon the kind of bread also.
One way to improve the crumb texture is to add diastatic malt as that
will open up the crumb grain and improve oven spring...the malt can be
in syrup or in powder form..
Another thing that improves volume and symmetry is to increase the salt
by half a teaspoon but first bulk ferment it twice.
Most UK professional bread contains 2 tsp salt per 500 grams of flour.
By then the dough is really stable and can withstand better with
increased rising time which results is bigger loaves.

Ferment one and a half hour then knock it back and let it rise more by
quarter of an hour then divide it let it rest for 15 minutes then mold.

Allow it to rise properly and check by using the indent test before
you bake it.
Push your fingertip into the dough and if it retracts immediately it
needs more rising...
If the indentation slowly springs back....then its right for baking
Try these things and let us see the result

>Ferment one and a half hour then knock it back and let it rise more by
>quarter of an hour then divide it let it rest for 15 minutes then mold.

Oops!

I mean afer the first rise ...let it rise by three quarters of an hour
more ....before you divide it.

chembake wrote:

> Ferment one and a half hour then knock it back and let it rise more by
> quarter of an hour then divide it let it rest for 15 minutes then mold.

Hey, chembake...

I've been trying to get home-made French bread to approximate the bakery
versions for an article I'm writing. They haven't been bad, but neither
were they good.

A Northern Italian professional baker who recently located near here
said my proportions were fine, but I needed to change the times and
volumes of rise. He also said I should let it work at 75°F rather than
warmer or cooler.

Mix with cool water. He said it can be done in a mixer, by hand or in a
processor. As long as the dough doesn't get warm. Knead 50 strokes. Put
into a bowl, cover with plastic wrap and let rise.

First rise takes between 1 1/2 and 2 hours (in a bowl that he said not
to grease, so I didn't, and a tiny bit stuck. Not enough to make a
difference.), but only rises to about 150% of initial volume. It rises,
but it's dense. Then punch down and knead 50 strokes, floured board. Let
rest for a few minutes and roll and pull to a 14-inch rectangle and roll
from the wide sides into the center (as though making palmiers). Pinch
the seam, turn it on its side and roll/pull again. And bring in the
sides again and pinch it closed. Let rise on floured towel (no sticks to
hold them up - dough stiff enough not to need it) seam side up, covered
with floured towels, until it rises to three times volume. Roll over
onto peel, slash and bake on a stone or a baguette pan (done both and
both were excellent) at 450°F for 20 minutes (throw 1/2 cup water into
the oven), lower heat to 400°F for another 20 minutes.

It's all wrong if my school baking instructors are to be believed.
Overworked. Dough too stiff - 460 grams flour (strange mixture - 450
grams high gluten and 10 grams whole wheat - never heard of anything
like that), 300 gms water (salt, yeast) - and this 75°F is either too
cool or too warm depending on whether a warm or cold rise, by normal
processes.

The bread was wonderful. When it was cooling, it "sang" as the crust
crackled. The inside was chewy and light, even bubbles, moist crumb, no
sign of layers. Clean crust. I washed one with egg white to see how it
would take and it shined like it was made of golden glass. Very high
gloss, full gelatinization in the crust, no porosities except in the
slash, which I didn't wash.

What do you think of this recipe approach? Three rises, two full kneads
and then the forming and shaping that was to roll out, fold and re-roll
and re-fold. Triple volume for the shaped loaves? I also tried it with
quick-rise yeast and, as I expected, the finished flavor was nowhere
near as good as with the Red Star dry active. Texture was good, slightly
faster, but it tasted like supermarket French bread.

Pastorio

Hey, chembake...
>I've been trying to get home-made French bread to approximate the bakery
>versions for an article I'm writing. They haven't been bad, but neither
>were they good.
>A Northern Italian professional baker who recently located near here
>said my proportions were fine, but I needed to change the times and
>volumes of rise. He also said I should let it work at 75°F rather than
>warmer or cooler.
>Mix with cool water. He said it can be done in a mixer, by hand or in a
>processor. As long as the dough doesn't get warm. Knead 50 strokes. Put
>into a bowl, cover with plastic wrap and let rise.
>First rise takes between 1 1/2 and 2 hours (in a bowl that he said not
>to grease, so I didn't, and a tiny bit stuck. Not enough to make a
>difference.), but only rises to about 150% of initial volume. It rises,
>but it's dense.

Hi Bob!
It seems that your dough is still young when you punched it.I am not
aware if the yeast you are using is really that active or the amount is
sufficient.I have some perception that the dough is rather tight.

>Then punch down and knead 50 strokes, floured board.

I don't understand that procedure what is the need for 50
strokes....?
Is Gary Coleman the baking tutor of your instructor..?.
Different strokes for different folks? <just joking> But That procedure
will result in a tighter crumb...which can be elastic

> Let
>rest for a few minutes and roll and pull to a 14-inch rectangle and roll
>from the wide sides into the center (as though making palmiers).

Bob that is not the way how to mold a French stick properly,,,but that
is how beginners used to mold their breads.
Or Unless the bread is really firm that rolling it like a Swiss roll is
the way to get an even dimension of the loaf.

>Pinch
>the seam, turn it on its side and roll/pull again. And bring in the
>sides again and pinch it closed. Let rise on floured towel (no sticks to
>hold them up - dough stiff enough not to need it) seam side up, covered
>with floured towels, until it rises to three times volume. Roll over
>onto peel, slash and bake on a stone or a baguette pan (done both and
>both were excellent) at 450°F for 20 minutes (throw 1/2 cup water into
>the oven), lower heat to 400°F for another 20 minutes.

The water should be thrown earlier to create steam, before the loaves
are loaded and not after,,,maybe the oven is leaky...?Anyway some
people do that and still can get a satisfactory crust but not the best.

>It's all wrong if my school baking instructors are to be believed.
>Overworked. Dough too stiff - 460 grams flour (strange mixture - 450
>grams high gluten and 10 grams whole wheat - never heard of anything
>like that), 300 gms water (salt, yeast) - and this 75°F is either too
>cool or too warm depending on whether a warm or cold rise, by normal
>processes.

Your recipe states 460 grams flour and 450 grams high gluten flour and
10 grams whole wheat flour. Assuming your first flour is all purpose
and the second is high gluten then the total flour protein content
460/920 x11 + 450/920 x14 +10/920 X 14.5=5.5 +6.85 +0.15=12.5% protein,
still within range for a general purpose bread flour.Now you added 300
grams water for a 920 grams flour ?...you are making an extremely tight
dough.!Think about it the absorption is 32 %.

This looks like a recipe for a pasta dough not a bread dough to me...
It might have been better If he replaced all the flour combination with
durum semolina (the yeast was not added) and the water replaced with
eggs and then passed to the pasta machine <grin>.
I think your teacher was a former pasta maker who think he can convert
his pasta recipe into bread by modification of the ingredients and
including some yeast.
I am sorry to tell....this instructor of yours baking skills is of an
apprentice bread baker...I think you can teach him how to do breads
better than the other way around...I know a lot of chefs are
moonlighting as bread bakers and indeed many of them can attain good
bread making skills.

>The bread was wonderful. When it was cooling, it "sang" as the crust
>crackled.

Hmmn...I would imagine the dough is humming the Ride of the Valkyrie by
Wagner<grin>...I mean the cracking can have a rhythm..?

> The inside was chewy and light, even bubbles, moist crumb, no
>sign of layers. Clean crust. I washed one with egg white to see how it
>would take and it shined like it was made of golden glass. Very high
>gloss, full gelatinization in the crust, no porosities except in the
>slash, which I didn't wash.

IMO a French bread does not need to be washed...but as that is in the
home situation and not the ideal oven for such item, that will help the
crust formation and browning but the color will not look natural.

>What do you think of this recipe approach?

Honestly...I don't find the recipe and methods represent true French
bread..
It's a mish mash of pasta making and bread making!
First the dough is tight and the crumb grain is expectedly tp be
closed grained ( which is a defect). A dough for French bread should be
soft not tight. The crumb should be irregular and open and the crust
appearance does not necessarily be glassy appearing but will have crust
cracking in some places. The slash should expand extensively even
showing the surface to bulge.
The use of firm dough is like some women who inject silicone in their
bosoms to create a bold look<grin>.. Yes it looks nice and sexy,
But ...I don't get turned on by that<grin>..

>Three rises,
That's reasonable if done properly...with proper recipe.

>two full kneads and then the forming and shaping that was to roll out,

If the dough was undermixed or made by autolysis method there is a need
for some kneading but if the dough is fully mixed... its not
recommended as that will further tighten (and oxidize) the dough
resulting in blander bread taste.

> fold and re-roll and re-fold. Triple volume for the shaped loaves? I also tried it >with
>quick-rise yeast and, as I expected, the finished flavor was nowhere
>near as good as with the Red Star dry active.

BTW what kind of yeast were you using is it compressed, or instant? The
supposed better flavor from Red Star dry active was from the autolysis
by product of dead yeast cells .That will produced peptones and
peptides which are enzymatically broken down to more amino acids and
degradation products of yeast cells( nucleic acids ) that provide
better bread aroma than with bread made with fresh yeast nor instant
yeast which is deficient in such dead cells.

>Texture was good, slightly
>faster, but it tasted like supermarket French bread.
I am not sure what you mean by faster, but its expected that the bread
taste slightly better than cardboard.<grin>..